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Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Fri 7 Oct 2016 20:44
by Illusive
R3d Sh4mbala wrote:Why are Spikes missing as much as they are?

I have noticed that the ATGM speed hit roll coding is doing some funky things to the Spikes. :shock:

I had one game where my Spikes were almost missing as much as Malytukas. :shock:

It hurts my soul every time someone thinks that the hit-roll system causes lowers accuracy. It merely adds a visual wobble to ATGMs, even if a missile rolls multiple misses in a row it can still hit so long as the last roll is a hit and it is kinematically possible for a hit to occur. People seem convinced that the shown accuracy values are incorrect because of an anecdotal experience with an absurdly small sample of missiles. The devs have explained multiple times how the mechanic works and yet the same people continue to spread bullshit about it because they are too ignorant to dig any deeper into the topic other than treating a confirmation biased hunch as fact and declaring their testing as empirical despite the fact that it wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of a high school math student.

TLDR: Stop calling mechanics broken if you have no clue about how it works and are simply assuming something is awry because you shot 5 ATGMs and 3 missed with 60% accuracy.

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 02:11
by Mako
Illusive wrote:
R3d Sh4mbala wrote:Why are Spikes missing as much as they are?

I have noticed that the ATGM speed hit roll coding is doing some funky things to the Spikes. :shock:

I had one game where my Spikes were almost missing as much as Malytukas. :shock:

It hurts my soul every time someone thinks that the hit-roll system causes lowers accuracy. It merely adds a visual wobble to ATGMs, even if a missile rolls multiple misses in a row it can still hit so long as the last roll is a hit and it is kinematically possible for a hit to occur. People seem convinced that the shown accuracy values are incorrect because of an anecdotal experience with an absurdly small sample of missiles. The devs have explained multiple times how the mechanic works and yet the same people continue to spread bullshit about it because they are too ignorant to dig any deeper into the topic other than treating a confirmation biased hunch as fact and declaring their testing as empirical despite the fact that it wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of a high school math student.

TLDR: Stop calling mechanics broken if you have no clue about how it works and are simply assuming something is awry because you shot 5 ATGMs and 3 missed with 60% accuracy.


But I FEEL LIKE THEYRE INACCURATE AND I DONT KNOW WHAT A SAMPLE SIZE IS

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 02:14
by another505
Mako wrote:
Illusive wrote:
R3d Sh4mbala wrote:Why are Spikes missing as much as they are?

I have noticed that the ATGM speed hit roll coding is doing some funky things to the Spikes. :shock:

I had one game where my Spikes were almost missing as much as Malytukas. :shock:

It hurts my soul every time someone thinks that the hit-roll system causes lowers accuracy. It merely adds a visual wobble to ATGMs, even if a missile rolls multiple misses in a row it can still hit so long as the last roll is a hit and it is kinematically possible for a hit to occur. People seem convinced that the shown accuracy values are incorrect because of an anecdotal experience with an absurdly small sample of missiles. The devs have explained multiple times how the mechanic works and yet the same people continue to spread bullshit about it because they are too ignorant to dig any deeper into the topic other than treating a confirmation biased hunch as fact and declaring their testing as empirical despite the fact that it wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of a high school math student.

TLDR: Stop calling mechanics broken if you have no clue about how it works and are simply assuming something is awry because you shot 5 ATGMs and 3 missed with 60% accuracy.


But I FEEL LIKE THEYRE INACCURATE AND I DONT KNOW WHAT A SAMPLE SIZE IS

I thought FLX did clarify it, that it does lower the accuracy a bit

since you have reroll multiple times, if you rolled miss too many times at first, when at the last one rolls a hit, there is a chance the atgm couldnt curve back in time, making it a miss
however, iirc, rolling a miss for the last round will be a miss

I did a sample size of the ZDF 89 before this patch with Keldon, around 59 test, the average accuracy is 50 percent, not 60 percent that it displays ingame

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 02:16
by Illusive
Mako wrote:
Illusive wrote:
R3d Sh4mbala wrote:Why are Spikes missing as much as they are?I had one game where my Spikes were almost missing as much as Malytukas. :shock:

TLDR: Stop calling mechanics broken if you have no clue about how it works and are simply assuming something is awry because you shot 5 ATGMs and 3 missed with 60% accuracy.

But I FEEL LIKE THEYRE INACCURATE AND I DONT KNOW WHAT A SAMPLE SIZE IS

It doesn't take a genius to know that >50% means it hits every time and <50% means it misses every time!!! :lol:

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 02:18
by Mako
Although that being said, I do suspect they are less slightly accurate than the value displays, probably due to the kinematic limitations on retargeting, or the obvious factor of losing LOS.

Another's example would seem to cautiously confirm that.

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 02:54
by Guggy
Yeah, the kinetic factors are a huge part.

So I've got it so atgms that lose target will keep going to the last spotted location with a 1 degree variation of error. It's interesting in testing. Most wasted missiles are from overkill and targets being destroyed while others are in flight but only way to prevent that is super micro and squad management it appears :(

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 03:14
by Borscht
Guggy wrote:Yeah, the kinetic factors are a huge part.

So I've got it so atgms that lose target will keep going to the last spotted location with a 1 degree variation of error. It's interesting in testing. Most wasted missiles are from overkill and targets being destroyed while others are in flight but only way to prevent that is super micro and squad management it appears :(

From what I noticed in Wargame, that the moment that LoS is lost, even if for a split second, the missile yells "FREEDOM" and flies away into the nothingness.

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 03:20
by Guggy
Yep, every missile has a movement model that dictates its behavior when on or off target. I'm not sure if you can force it to reacquire the target if it reappears, but if so it'd be fucking terrific.

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 03:38
by Borscht
Guggy wrote:Yep, every missile has a movement model that dictates its behavior when on or off target. I'm not sure if you can force it to reacquire the target if it reappears, but if so it'd be fucking terrific.

But then I can't use my Buks to snipe enemy CV jeeps lol

Re: Underperforming israel units

Posted: Sat 8 Oct 2016 03:54
by Sweedish_Gunner
Guggy wrote:Yep, every missile has a movement model that dictates its behavior when on or off target. I'm not sure if you can force it to reacquire the target if it reappears, but if so it'd be fucking terrific.


I thought as soon as LoS was broken that was it for the missile hitting unless it's F&F? I've never seen an ATGM re-acquire a target which broke LoS.