Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

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FoxZz
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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby FoxZz » Mon 10 Oct 2016 10:07

Why does Israeli tanks have 10 Rof anyway ?

Is it an abstraction based on anything real ?

Otherwise they should probably have the standard 9rpm for 120mm manually loaded gun.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby smyljr » Mon 10 Oct 2016 12:21

i am of the opinion that the entire merkava line should have its frontal armor reduced by two points.

as well, automatic grenade launchers from all countries should have their time between reloads halved, and their reload speed halved.
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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby throwaway » Mon 10 Oct 2016 12:52

All grenade launchers have already been balanced to match their performance IMO, it's only the merkava that throws a wrench into the works. If AGL gets globally nerfed then everything from kafv 40/50 through little bird to btr-90 will need price buffs, there's no need for that. Just slam the unit that can do the work of tanks better than a tank and the work of bmpt better than bmpt.

A nerf to decrease AGL performance against tanks specifically would be nice but a rof reduction won't do that.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby fox_the_apprentice » Mon 10 Oct 2016 15:36

hansbroger wrote:[...]
Armor could be normalized by -1/-2 FAV (3 is a bit severe) but they could leverage price reductions as well.
[...]


-3 FAV would be a bad idea, I like the idea of -1 FAV (maybe -2 for some of them).
That said, I'd also like to see them lose the 10 RPM on tanks.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby codextero » Mon 10 Oct 2016 15:43

HrcAk47 wrote:So, where exactly did Israel encounter T-72 Ural under combat conditions? They thislandismine'd into Soviet Union in the '70s?


They didn't, they encountered T-72M, and the Syrian experience in 82 caused the Soviets to develop the T-72M1 upgrade. Later on Syria got T-72A, which didn't see combat until 2011.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby Mighty_Zuk » Mon 10 Oct 2016 16:29

HrcAk47 wrote:So, where exactly did Israel encounter T-72 Ural under combat conditions? They thislandismine'd into Soviet Union in the '70s?


There are reports of Merkava 1 encountering T-72 tanks in Syria in 1982 but these are not entirely confirmed and these are often conflicting.

But we do know the M111 was tested in Kubinka after the SAA captured an abandoned M48 tank during the Sultan Yacoub battle.

It has shown capability to pierce the hull, but the turret remained for the most part impregnable at normal combat ranges.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 10 Oct 2016 16:46

codextero wrote:
Mighty_Zuk wrote:I get that most of the OP-ness is attributed to the Merkava 2B transport with AGL, but having done a few test runs against it with BMP-2 or BMP-1 transports in an eastern bloc deck, they can be quite easily knocked out. 2 stacks of 2 (of either transporter) for like 40pts total and you can destroy an 80pts Merkava.
Just a warning though; I'm an urban brawler and havent got to test them in forests yet.


Hoo boy, 4 BMP-2/BMP-1 taking out Merkava IIA?

Please show me a video of you doing this against not a computer or a sale newbie.


What a shock, he is ignoring you on that.
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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby Mighty_Zuk » Mon 10 Oct 2016 17:03

Fade2Gray wrote:
codextero wrote:
Mighty_Zuk wrote:I get that most of the OP-ness is attributed to the Merkava 2B transport with AGL, but having done a few test runs against it with BMP-2 or BMP-1 transports in an eastern bloc deck, they can be quite easily knocked out. 2 stacks of 2 (of either transporter) for like 40pts total and you can destroy an 80pts Merkava.
Just a warning though; I'm an urban brawler and havent got to test them in forests yet.


Hoo boy, 4 BMP-2/BMP-1 taking out Merkava IIA?

Please show me a video of you doing this against not a computer or a sale newbie.


What a shock, he is ignoring you on that.


I'm not ignoring. I'm just expressing my unwillingness to put effort into installing a recording program (unless WG has a built in recording option which I am not aware of) and uploading a video.

And when I said "tested", one can very easily infer it was against AI. And I also did static firing tests (roughly measured time for 1 Merkava to kill 4 BMPs, and vice versa).
The Merkava 2A would lose most of the time, and if you take 80pts worth of BMPs, then it really has no chance.
So as I've said. Eastern Bloc is a very good counter for Israel.
From what I see it's also one of the most played coalitions.

By the way I am flattered by this borderline obsession you have with me, like rimmingmemer and the bunch.
Last edited by Mighty_Zuk on Mon 10 Oct 2016 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby hansbroger » Mon 10 Oct 2016 17:07

How exactly can you test that against AI?! The only single party tests I have seen/can do are artillery/aircraft lethality tests against friendly units, anything else requires two players to create any sort of consistency, rigor and replicable results.

Assuming a miraculous four Malyutka hits the BMPs still have to make six hits... From 1575m or whatever it is.... Go on?

The Merkava I and Merkava II are the two that I see dropping by 2 FAV. I would knock down the IIB and IIIB by 1 FAV as they do have some rather serious BDD/Stillbrew style overlay (and IIIB has NERA similar to the T-72B) which while definitely effective still doesn't qualify for field leading NATO superheavy armor stats.

Furthermore, I'd change the Merkava IIA IFV into two cards of Merkava I or Merkava II with an AGL. They are vastly more appropriate for balance reasons and do no represent a vast decrease in overall functionality to the deck, in fact they'd be more flexible and easier to field for a reasonable price. FFS with a Merkava I IFVs you're pretty much getting a better M1 with an AGL... tell me that wouldn't be perfectly useful in a forest. furthermore a nation would be most likely to use its more obsolete variants or those least suitable for front line combat against MBTs in such an infantry subordinated role. A Merkava I/II variant makes sense in the sense of balance AND realism.

Plus wouldn't it free up the Merkava IIA to hang out around 125pts+ in the tank tab? (Pricing casually off of FAV)
Last edited by hansbroger on Mon 10 Oct 2016 17:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israeli armoured works! What can be learned from it?

Postby codextero » Mon 10 Oct 2016 17:13

Mighty_Zuk wrote:
I'm not ignoring. I'm just expressing my unwillingness to put effort into installing a recording program (unless WG has a built in recording option which I am not aware of) and uploading a video.

And when I said "tested", one can very easily infer it was against AI. And I also did static firing tests (roughly measured time for 1 Merkava to kill 4 BMPs, and vice versa).
The Merkava 2A would lose most of the time, and if you take 80pts worth of BMPs, then it really has no chance.
So as I've said. Eastern Bloc is a very good counter for Israel.
From what I see it's also one of the most played coalitions.


If you have an Nvidia or ATI card, their drivers come with shadowplay and GVR respectively. They aren't hard to use.

And tests against AI are pretty much useless for anything besides raw stats or air jousting. Find someone willing to help on the forums. Have them command a merk IIA, and post results of you killing it with 4 BMP-1/2.

Heck, I'm an awful player, but i'm willing to run tests if you are.

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