The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

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HrcAk47
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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 16 Dec 2016 20:02

How would a 140/152 mm tank work in wargame?

It will likely have 25 AP (to begin with), 2450 range, 5-6 HE, 3 RPM with reload only working when static, and sub-par stabs. Is this really needed?

As for the British Chieftain... How will that work? Likely rifled with 7-part ammo that you assemble within barrel, but hey the larger water heater kettle is to die for and +1 HE for trashcan rubbish bin-sized HESH shell :D
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby Ribar » Fri 16 Dec 2016 20:23

HrcAk47 wrote:How would a 140/152 mm tank work in wargame?

It will likely have 25 AP (to begin with), 2450 range, 5-6 HE, 3 RPM with reload only working when static, and sub-par stabs. Is this really needed?


It would be quite impractical for attacking in my opinion. :|
How would we price it? Expensive glass cannon.
It would pack a punch, but with slow fire rate it would not be good for multiple targets, especially ATGM carriers.
Although, they might work for ambushing enemy heavies? :idea:
That thing might have potential for defense!
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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 16 Dec 2016 20:33

Ribar wrote:
It would be quite impractical for attacking in my opinion. :|
How would we price it? Expensive glass cannon.
It would pack a punch, but with slow fire rate it would not be good for multiple targets, especially ATGM carriers.
Although, they might work for ambushing enemy heavies? :idea:
That thing might have potential for defense!


The predominant issue is KE/acc scaling that will cap extremely rapidly at 30 AP (if 2450 range and 25 AP, it becomes a no-miss rail gun at 1750 m).

It basically removes the need for armor, as armor becomes irrelevant.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby terror51247 » Fri 16 Dec 2016 21:07

HrcAk47 wrote:How would a 140/152 mm tank work in wargame?

It will likely have 25 AP (to begin with), 2450 range, 5-6 HE, 3 RPM with reload only working when static, and sub-par stabs. Is this really needed?

As for the British Chieftain... How will that work? Likely rifled with 7-part ammo that you assemble within barrel, but hey the larger water heater kettle is to die for and +1 HE for trashcan rubbish bin-sized HESH shell :D

140mm/152mm penetration is usually around 850mm when using late 80's/early 90's ammo.Thats around 20% more than m892a2 which means ap around 28/29.
BTW where did you get the 3rpm number from?
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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby hansbroger » Fri 16 Dec 2016 21:10

I doubt it would warrant 2450m range tbh. Most 120mm/125mm guns with post 1985 fcs are capable of engagements far in excess of 2275m already so it seems more like an arbitrary setting of the standard at a predetermined limit like "the maximum practical engagement range by direct fire weapons is 2275m" rather than by inherent limitations of the current weapons in game.

The only 2450m weapons in game currently use a synthesis of direct and indirect fires ranges to create a SIDF range for HE only guns.

Indeed it really seems that for all but the most exceptional of cases (terrain and meteorological conditions permitting) the only benefit of the 140/152mm gun is increased lethality within the range already inhabited by the 125mm L48 and 120mm L44/52/55.
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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 16 Dec 2016 21:16

terror51247 wrote:140mm/152mm penetration is usually around 850mm when using late 80's/early 90's ammo.Thats 20% more than m892a2 which means ap around 28.
BTW where did you get the 3rpm number from?


How many kilograms does such round have?

I would eyeball it at 40+ kg for APFSDS.

Have you ever worked repeatedly with similar weights on a moving platform?
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby terror51247 » Fri 16 Dec 2016 21:25

HrcAk47 wrote:
terror51247 wrote:140mm/152mm penetration is usually around 850mm when using late 80's/early 90's ammo.Thats 20% more than m892a2 which means ap around 28.
BTW where did you get the 3rpm number from?


How many kilograms does such round have?

I would eyeball it at 40+ kg for APFSDS.

Have you ever worked repeatedly with similar weights on a moving platform?

140mm and 152mm armed tanks usually have autoloaders.
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Postby Capion » Sun 25 Dec 2016 20:27

Ok, with a balance patch incoming and Morpher not present (though hopefully lurking in the shadows), I will try again:

First off I like to mention something to the people who will probably answer to this tread (assuming they are not smart enough to just ignore it ;) ):

I know that some of you have some kind of PTSD concerning Eurocorps. Believe me if I tell you now, that this isnt a thing anymore. Be assured there is very little to fear. Marder 2s and Jäger are mediocre. There is nothing to spam left and you can quite savely ban Fallschirmjäger '90 from your nightmares. This is a thing of the past. A begone era to be fondly remembered by some and not to be feared by you.

Furthermore this tread is not intended to change that. I will just propose very modest changes to make this deck semi-competetive. I will apologize upfront to fans of the French part of the deck. I just happen to think, that with one or two exceptions the french deck is pretty balanced. Also I am relentlessly biased towards West Germany. So sue me!

Now here we go:

First order of business:
Availibility. Even if you consider the French deck balanced and the WGerman not terrible, to consider these major decks with no availibility boni is quite ridiculous. There needs to be at least a small bonus. Its bad enough to be not-cost-effective, you dont need to be outspammed by numbers in addition.

Second:
Infantry: This is killing the deck! EC needs something to somewhat counter (not hard counter) shock spam and Jäger are the only thing capable of that. Now I know that was a big part of the aforementioned PTSD problem, but there was an MG rebalance. The MG 3 isnt the buzzsaw of death anymore. Its still good and so is the G3, which is the reason the Jäger are an option at all, but while they cant and shouldnt compete with shocks, they should at least be able to hold a while until you think of something to do (and believe me with EC that something is certainly not bombing). So pls either put them back at 10 pts or keep them at 15 and give them back the ability to deal with all those 5/10/15 pts super-transports out there. Its one or the other or eternal darkness.

Third:
Fire support. I tried KJPz and ERC, I tried the recoiless rifles, hell I even tried the FlakPz. I dont know how you will do it, but do it. Make the KJPz 15 pts or the ERC and change their stats but this deck needs a cheap fast firing gun, not an AC, a GUN.

Fourth:
ECs super heavies are great, but they are also the only way to deal with enemy super-heavies (or frankly just heavies). You are careless for one second, you loose. You are in the wrong place, you loose. And even if not its a wash most of the time. Your planes dont cut it. The Etendars are slow suicide planes ag. any half-way well protected target. The Peace Rhines are even worse. Your heli and ground ATGMs are short range, slow (aka 2 hit rolls) and inaccurate to start with. And to add insult to injury while EC AA is far from bad it has nothing to stop enemy ATGM planes before they fire. (and no: As good as Rafales are they dont counter 120 pt Serias)
So pls for the love of Santa, give us that plane. Reroll the Peace Rhine into something useful.

Last one:
Maybe, if you could find it in you, just possibly: Give the Marder 2 like a quarter of its real life RoF instead of a tenth. its an autocannon not a bombard.

Now if anybody likes to add something (even something French :roll: ) I happily add it. Otherwise fire, dissect or ignore away.
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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby orcbuster » Sun 25 Dec 2016 20:29

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Re: The ultimate EuroCorpses thread

Postby Seryn » Sun 25 Dec 2016 20:54

HrcAk47 wrote:How would a 140/152 mm tank work in wargame?

It will likely have 25 AP (to begin with), 2450 range, 5-6 HE, 3 RPM with reload only working when static, and sub-par stabs. Is this really needed?

As for the British Chieftain... How will that work? Likely rifled with 7-part ammo that you assemble within barrel, but hey the larger water heater kettle is to die for and +1 HE for trashcan rubbish bin-sized HESH shell :D


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