RNG =/= competitive RTS

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Operation Ivy
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RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby Operation Ivy » Sun 16 Oct 2016 15:38

Hey!

I would like to discuss the immense factor RNG plays in Wargame and why it is not a good competitive game. I know you won't like to hear it, especially people who build their self esteem on their rank ;). No offense.

You have 2 major rng factors in ranked games.

1. You have no idea what you are up against until you encounter a couple of enemy units to be able to determine what faction your enemy is playing. At the start you have no idea what to expect. Not even slightly. This leads to big gambles which are stupid.

This is quite easy to fix by implementing a loading screen where you can see your opponents factions or simply add it in to the scoreboard in game.

2. The way bigger issue is the true problem, because it is hitting wargame pretty much at its core. Crits, Hits etc etc are all determined quite randomly which has huge impacts of the game itself. In a match where 2 equally skilled players are against each other, these rng results can very much lead to a win or lose.

A good example is, again, Starcraft 2. In the alpha/beta days, the units still had 6-12 damage for example. Blizzard realized how bad RNG is in a competitive game and removed it altogether, leading to the without doubt best modern competitive rts game out there at the moment.

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Razzmann
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby Razzmann » Sun 16 Oct 2016 15:42

I think Wargame is not meant to be a full-competitive game. It is (near) impossible to do that while also keeping real life stats of the units in mind.

However, I would still say that it is less RNG based than e.g. Hearthstone, which is pretty big in the esports scene.

I like how Wargame is, I would not like removing complexity, stats etc. I agree however that crits feel too random. Especially stuff like weapons jammed and optical failure.

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Operation Ivy
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby Operation Ivy » Sun 16 Oct 2016 15:45

Razzmann wrote:I think Wargame is not meant to be a full-competitive game. It is (near) impossible to do that while also keeping real life stats of the units in mind.

However, I would still say that it is less RNG based than e.g. Hearthstone, which is pretty big in the esports scene.


It is waaaaay better than Hearthstone and i honestly don't know how someone can take this srsly as an e-sport title with that much rng involved. Lets keep the focus of the topic on wargame.

However i think ranked 1v1 would be much improved, if you would be able to know the enemies faction beforehand.

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urho
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby urho » Sun 16 Oct 2016 16:11

Razzmann wrote:I think Wargame is not meant to be a full-competitive game. It is (near) impossible to do that while also keeping real life stats of the units in mind.

However, I would still say that it is less RNG based than e.g. Hearthstone, which is pretty big in the esports scene.

I like how Wargame is, I would not like removing complexity, stats etc. I agree however that crits feel too random. Especially stuff like weapons jammed and optical failure.

War game can't become a fully competitive game, but a simple implementation like pseudo random would make it a thounsand times better.
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RedFive
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby RedFive » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:11

Issue 1 is not an RNG thing. It affects all players equally and without random factors.

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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby morpher » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:13

Operation Ivy wrote:1. You have no idea what you are up against until you encounter a couple of enemy units to be able to determine what faction your enemy is playing. At the start you have no idea what to expect. Not even slightly. This leads to big gambles which are stupid.


I love this "feature".

Operation Ivy wrote:2. The way bigger issue is the true problem, because it is hitting wargame pretty much at its core. Crits, Hits etc etc are all determined quite randomly which has huge impacts of the game itself. In a match where 2 equally skilled players are against each other, these rng results can very much lead to a win or lose.


Crtis have a huge impact if you rely on 1/2 super units. I like that even with the best units you still have a small chance of losing.


Operation Ivy wrote:A good example is, again, Starcraft 2. In the alpha/beta days, the units still had 6-12 damage for example. Blizzard realized how bad RNG is in a competitive game and removed it altogether, leading to the without doubt best modern competitive rts game out there at the moment.


Starcraft 2 is the best competitive rts because the competition is near zero. Let's be honest, it is a shitty game.

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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby DasaKamov » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:21

OP: The changes you propose would create a game other than Wargame.

For point # 1, make greater use of recon. Retain some points in reserve you that you can respond to your opponents's army composition with appropriate counters. Play against "National and Specialized Deck" lobbies, where you can have a better expectation of what you'll be facing if your opponent picks NORAD Motorized or E-German Armored.

For point #2, the "Critical Hit" mechanic works as much FOR you as it does AGAINST you. Furthermore, I've NEVER played a game where the outcome was completely determined by whomever got more "Fire-Control-System-Resets" or "Stuck in the Mud" results than the other. The player who out-thinks and out-maneuvers their opponent will win, all other things being equal (and, again, Critical Hits affect all players equally).

"Critical Hits" test a player's ability to react to unexpected situations -- otherwise, you may as well determine the outcome of a match by using Statistics and Spreadsheets rather than actually playing a match.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

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urho
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby urho » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:27

RedFive wrote:Issue 1 is not an RNG thing. It affects all players equally and without random factors.

It's not an RNG thing, but a gambling game, just like rock-paper-scissors.
-helo rushes
-high risk, high reward opening like airspam + early land grab
.....
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throwaway
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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby throwaway » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:36

Yeah, having marines do 6-12 damage in starcraft may be bad because there's little you can do to make up for bad rolls in that game, but WRD is pretty different in how many options you have and how much lower the stakes in individual fights are.

I agree about the all-in openers, although it's worth noting that starcraft also has them - how is a gornostrelki drop on winter different from a cannon rush? Anyway, I don't think a deck reveal would do much about those, it will only weaken mech/moto etc decks.

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Re: RNG =/= competitive RTS

Postby Sleksa » Sun 16 Oct 2016 17:38

All this game would really need is symmetrical maps. The map balance in the game has always been incredibly bad, but the core game in itself is pretty solid.

As for critical hits, they aren't generated completely randomly. Certain crits cause certain damage and certain effects, and have x% chance of being triggered when Y thing happens. This is no different than say dota 2 with x% chance to trigger things, and that game's a multi-million prizepool competitive game, so the logic that rng =/= competitive is simply flawed
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