Opinion about cluster bombs

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keldon
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Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby keldon » Mon 17 Oct 2016 19:47

Since I was kinda pushing for a mega cluster bomber for RD, I checked what the other coalitions are bringing to the table in terms of clusterbombs.

And it is strangly standardized, amount and weight of bomblets don't seem to affect the stats in any meaningful way. The only weapon which sticks out is the Swedish hammer of god bomb with 10 AP, which i don't know much about to understand why the special treatment.

Currently almost every clusterbomb are stuck with the same AP and AOE per bomb, which favors huge loadouts that are commonly seen in BluFor deployment. RedFor arguably got the short end of the stick with generally lower load and the RBK-500 doing the same dmg as the rockeye.

So, any opinion what can/should be done about the rather unloved weapon category?

UPDATE: Xeno made a great list of cluster bombs viewtopic.php?p=989505#p989505
Last edited by keldon on Mon 31 Oct 2016 19:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Opinion about Cluster bombs

Postby edthebeast » Mon 17 Oct 2016 19:53

I'm not sure what it is, but I know the Swedish BK-90 is special in some way or another (Xeno will enlighten you)..... The danish F-16 and other planes with 12 bombs are acceptably good, but if I remember rightly there are issues with AP power dissipating away from the centre of the blast area, which is unrealistic. I'm also unsure if 2 bombs landing on top of each other count as two hits.
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Re: Opinion about Cluster bombs

Postby Sleksa » Mon 17 Oct 2016 20:08

edthebeast wrote:I'm not sure what it is, but I know the Swedish BK-90 is special in some way or another (Xeno will enlighten you)..... The danish F-16 and other planes with 12 bombs are acceptably good, but if I remember rightly there are issues with AP power dissipating away from the centre of the blast area, which is unrealistic. I'm also unsure if 2 bombs landing on top of each other count as two hits.


Bk90 is actually a glidebomb that carries cluster munitions, but the game doesn't have glide bomb weapon types, nor can we make a missile have a cluster effect, so it's abstracted to a cluster bomb.
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Re: Opinion about Cluster bombs

Postby keldon » Mon 17 Oct 2016 20:12

Sleksa wrote:
edthebeast wrote:I'm not sure what it is, but I know the Swedish BK-90 is special in some way or another (Xeno will enlighten you)..... The danish F-16 and other planes with 12 bombs are acceptably good, but if I remember rightly there are issues with AP power dissipating away from the centre of the blast area, which is unrealistic. I'm also unsure if 2 bombs landing on top of each other count as two hits.


Bk90 is actually a glidebomb that carries cluster munitions, but the game doesn't have glide bomb weapon types, nor can we make a missile have a cluster effect, so it's abstracted to a cluster bomb.


Does the 10 AP has somehow to do with it being a glidebomb? I would imagine damage would be affected by the bomblet and AOE by the amount of bomblet carried.
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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby steppewolf » Mon 17 Oct 2016 20:24

So it's more like a pod who detonate close to the target thus not spreading the warheads too much?

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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby Xeno426 » Mon 17 Oct 2016 20:47

TAL-2 is also out of line; the bomblets are closer to the size seen in the Rockeye.
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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby Erwin12824 » Mon 17 Oct 2016 20:59

Maybe... give it HE?

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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby Mako » Mon 17 Oct 2016 21:00

Why can't we just give the BK-90 like 4500m range, so it just drops it from farther away?



Also, I'd still like to see the HE effect of the cluster weapons implemented, would be pretty easy to do mechanically.

Just add an invisible weapon slaved to the CBU's weapon card (so they both turn off or on at the same time) that drops a bunch of 1 HE bombs with the same spread with the same accuracy/dispersion and make them invisible or small projectiles.

That way you get a nice carpet of tiny conventional explosions as well as the clusters bursting down.


Wouldn't be that effective overall, since its just 1 HE, but it would mean they can actually harm infantry and would slightly buff all clusters in general, as well as making them more realistic.
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keldon
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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby keldon » Mon 17 Oct 2016 21:11

Xeno426 wrote:TAL-2 is also out of line; the bomblets are closer to the size seen in the Rockeye.


I checked more thoroughly and found more deviation in cluster munition.

TAL-2 (ISR): 7 AP
IBL-755 (UK): 8 AP
BLG-66 Beluga (FR): 7 AP
CBU-87 (NLD): 8 AP
BK90 (SWE): 10 AP

If we somehow take the bomblet of rockeye as the standard, which is around 600g (?), then how are these AP derived? For comparison, the PTAB bomblets used in RBK-500 are around 1 to 2,5 kg, which ingame has the same AP as rockeye.

I think if we can tweak AP and AOE quite some of the cluster planes can be decent alternatives to the more popular ATGM carriers, thus create more options to diversify gameplay. Also currently RedFor is screwed because RBK-500 carrier is severly underpowered.
Last edited by keldon on Mon 17 Oct 2016 21:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opinion about cluster bombs

Postby Sleksa » Mon 17 Oct 2016 21:14

Mako wrote:Why can't we just give the BK-90 like 4500m range, so it just drops it from farther away?


Because it'd be effectively immune to all but the most long ranged AA systems. From historical perspective there's also a lot of weapons that outrange the bk90 and would then also have a realism reason to get 4500+ ranges.
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