Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

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morpher
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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby morpher » Sat 22 Oct 2016 13:24

Azaz3l wrote:
nande wrote:But I do agree it's hilarious that the Su-76M has medium optics.

It's not. Justification back then was that SU-76M has open top thus allows 360° view around the tank.


What a joke

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby Sunshine » Sat 22 Oct 2016 15:18

morpher wrote:
Azaz3l wrote:
nande wrote:But I do agree it's hilarious that the Su-76M has medium optics.

It's not. Justification back then was that SU-76M has open top thus allows 360° view around the tank.


What a joke

Pahaha yeah, I mean... wow.
Let's give it exceptional optics already! :lol:
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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby Razzmann » Sat 22 Oct 2016 15:31

M18 buff when?
BTR-60P buff when?

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby codextero » Sat 22 Oct 2016 16:40

morpher wrote:
Azaz3l wrote:
nande wrote:But I do agree it's hilarious that the Su-76M has medium optics.

It's not. Justification back then was that SU-76M has open top thus allows 360° view around the tank.


What a joke


It's not a joke.

The visibility difference between buttoned up and not buttoned up is absurd. Vision prisms fucking suck, anyone would rather stick their head out if it were not for the risk of having it blown off. The penalty for open top is 0TAV, which means it dies in one shot to 5 AP cluster or mortars.

Open top also allows another pair of effective eyes from the loader, who usually has just 1-2 prisms set in a given direction.

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby morpher » Sat 22 Oct 2016 16:48

codextero wrote:
It's not a joke.


It's a meme.

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby damoj » Sat 22 Oct 2016 17:03

Razzmann wrote:They all suck like every exceptional optics ground recon.
The issue is not the optics, but that the suggested units are wheeled and armed + armoured.


Here's a super left-of-field suggestion.

Scrap all vehicles with Exceptional optics, rebalance and buff them into Good/Very Good support roles, like the Sněžka et al.

Reintroduce Exceptional optics ground units as...

wait for it:

SEAD-able, ground-based perimeter radar units.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perimeter ... ance_radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSTAR

Heaps of military vehicles both contemporary and historical used them, some with both exceptional ground *and* air detection capabilities.

This would either be the best, or absolute worst idea ever.

Think about it.

(Somewhat) seeing through forests and buildings.

SEAD-able recon unicorn units.

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby codextero » Sat 22 Oct 2016 17:36

damoj wrote:
Razzmann wrote:They all suck like every exceptional optics ground recon.
The issue is not the optics, but that the suggested units are wheeled and armed + armoured.


Here's a super left-of-field suggestion.

Scrap all vehicles with Exceptional optics, rebalance and buff them into Good/Very Good support roles, like the Sněžka et al.

Reintroduce Exceptional optics ground units as...

wait for it:

SEAD-able, ground-based perimeter radar units.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perimeter ... ance_radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSTAR

Heaps of military vehicles both contemporary and historical used them, some with both exceptional ground *and* air detection capabilities.

This would either be the best, or absolute worst idea ever.

Think about it.

(Somewhat) seeing through forests and buildings.

SEAD-able recon unicorn units.


Exceptional optics just needs to not gimp the price by so damn much.

Good recon jeep - 10 points
VG recon jeep - 25 points
Exceptional recon jeep - 50 points

Right now everyone is riding the "good recon" train because it's a massive improvement over medium optics and has stealth for a moderate price increase.

VG optics isn't worth a 20 point premium on fragile platforms. On more armored units, sure, but not on 1/2 AV thin-skins. The Dutch Leopard is so damn good because it's only 10 more points than the tank tab leopard, but gets VG optics and medium stealth. M3A2 is 20 points more than M901 ITV, but it gets medium stealth, 3 more armor, VG optics, and good stealth. Most of the VG optics units getting only VG optics and medium stealth are not worth it.

Exceptional is in no way worth 45 points on thin skins.

VG and Exceptional recon units would get used if their price premium was something more reasonable, say 5-10 points for good depending on the rest of the unit. 15-20 for VG, and 25-30 for exceptional. The more powerful/durable the base unit, the more that better optics jacks up the price.

So for Coyote, you take a base LAV-25, which should be 20 points, and add a 20 point recon premium for a total of 40 points.

For the BRM, you take the base BMP-1 chassis (10 points), and you add 30 point recon premium, and you get 40 points.

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Re: Very Good+ optics scouts for armored decks

Postby damoj » Sat 22 Oct 2016 18:09

codextero wrote:
Exceptional optics just needs to not gimp the price by so damn much.

...

VG and Exceptional recon units would get used if their price premium was something more reasonable, say 5-10 points for good depending on the rest of the unit. 15-20 for VG, and 25-30 for exceptional. The more powerful/durable the base unit, the more that better optics jacks up the price.

So for Coyote, you take a base LAV-25, which should be 20 points, and add a 20 point recon premium for a total of 40 points.

For the BRM, you take the base BMP-1 chassis (10 points), and you add 30 point recon premium, and you get 40 points.


As sensible as this suggestion is, you'd still probably end up using a 25pt Good Optics T-55 over a 40pt Exceptional BRM in most situations, as it just can't survive half as much as the T-55 nor really be as useful as a 40pt Very Good Mi-2.

The Cougar in this scenario would be a 5 point buff and increased optics - a decent buff but still suffering from low-availability and survivability.

The bottom line here is that even under such a pricing scheme, only unicorn-units like the Memebow and Meme-52 come out as
a) cost-effective due to their armament
b) useful for recon - no LOS BS effects because they're helicopters, can scoot away from disaster more reliably and quickly than a paper-thin tracked-vehicle

So I guess there are only three viable solutions to the problem.

Your approach which is the most conservative, which may still fail to make the Exceptional Optics units worth taking at all - no change in the meta.

A reformed approach that follows the suggestion of nerfing/buffing them into useful Very Good/Good units like the Chinese ZTZ or Frog Recon Mistral or whatever (can't imagine the BRM being more useful/expensive than the Snezka; still concedes that Exceptional Optics on ground units are pointless).

Or, the radical, half-joke suggestion of radar-recon that can detect - not necessarily identify, just silhouette - units from extreme range or within cover.

Or... more unicorn units like the Memebow (like an auto-grenade launcher on the BRM or whatever).

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