Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

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Xeno426
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Xeno426 » Mon 14 Nov 2016 01:20

Sgt._Pepper wrote:Germany was the one responsible for escalating it, while France tried everything to avoid a war.

No, no, not really. I think you've got a misunderstanding of history, or at the very least you have an exceptionally oversimplified understanding. While the actions of the Kaiser certainly helped nudge the conflict into open war, it was mainly through incompetence; the Kaiser gave the Austrio-Hungarians a "blank check" of support for the Empire's actions against Serbia and then went on holiday on a boat where nobody could reach him. They hadn't even bothered to check with the Austrio-Hungarians or dig very deep into what the Empire was planning to do specifically regarding the death of Franz, nor the wider implications of those actions.
Hötzendorf (on the Austrio-Hungarian side) had been the massive driving force to getting the Empire into a war with Serbia (he'd requested war no less than twenty times in the past two years).

The Russians began "semi" mobilizing before anybody else, and the strategic understanding of warfare at the time meant that a nation that did not mobilize while its enemy did would be walked over without much of a fight, forcing everybody elses' hands as well.
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Broth3r » Mon 14 Nov 2016 02:18

I do blame Hötzendorf first and foremost. Europe may have been on a hair trigger, but I'd still take someone either incredibly brave or incredibly dumb to pull it. It's a far different story to throw your nation's might into a fait accompli than starting it - and I have my doubts some of the cavalier generals and heads of state that seemed so proud to march into war would have had the courage to do so if someone else hadn't started it for them.

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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Mon 14 Nov 2016 02:59

Germany was not obligated to assist AH in its aggression against Serbia, it was their decision to support them. As Xeno said Russia did semi-mobilize along the Austrian border, so they could assist Serbia if it was attacked. Had Austria attacked without German support it would have been a conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia and Russia, not a World War. Maybe it wouldn't have started because the odds were likely against AH.

BUT Germany did want war with Russia. And they knew if they went to war against Russia that would mean war with France. So Germany fully mobilized and declared War on Russia, then France, then violated Belgian neutrality, thus dragging itself, France, Belgium and the United Kingdom and its Dominions into what could have been a war between AH and Russia/Serbia.
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Killertomato » Mon 14 Nov 2016 05:02

Xeno426 wrote:the Kaiser gave the Austrio-Hungarians a "blank check" of support for the Empire's actions against Serbia and then went on holiday on a boat where nobody could reach him.


So 15 million people died because the Kaiser didn't have a radio on his boat. :?
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Eukie » Mon 14 Nov 2016 07:35

Regarding Italian infantry anti-tank capabilities, I found this claim regarding the game Armored Brigade:

Truth to be told, Italian infantry should be reworked.

On paper, both Alpini and regular infantry were supposed to be issued with M20 "Super Bazooka" (roughly 280mm penetration) as their low-level AT asset. However M20 was simply put in warehouses after the 1960s, and remaining stocks of ammunition would be probably either unusable or even dangerous to operate. Even World War 2 era 57mm M18 and 75mm M20 recoilless were nominally available, but probably intended as fire support, rather than anti-tank role, given their obsolescence.

Around 1985/1986 FIR (Forza d'intervento rapido, Rapid Reaction Force) was formed, including one mechanized and one airmobile brigade, plus some other specialist units, and as an interim solution 500 APILAS rockets were acquired for them.
Various special forces used a variety of "exotic" anti-tank weapons, like RL-83 Blindicide and it's replacement C90-CR, or Carl Gustav. But given the limited number of those weapons in service, they shouldn't appear in AB.

That means Italian infantry should have extremely limited anti-tank capabilities in game. In real life 106mm M40 on company level was well widespread, and 714 MILAN launchers were also given to infantry formations. Breda Folgore, a complex and expensive weapon, seems to have been adopted in limited service from 1986 but it was unpopular.

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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Wirri » Mon 14 Nov 2016 08:29

HrcAk47 wrote:
Sweedish_Gunner wrote:I do like that way this turned into an Italy/Spain thread. Surprised it hasn't been split into two seperate threads.


It was a Rom/Bulg thread a few dozen pages back :D

And it was a productive one, there's 6-7 productive fleshed out proposals made in this thread.

Romania by Steppewolf
Bulgaria by yours truly
Ba'athist State by andrej47

Italy by antizombies_boy
Spain by antizombies_boy
South Africa by Eukie
Portugal by Broth3r

If it doesn't incur the wrath of the mods, we could have them all listed in one megathread on this subforum, with links leading to spreadsheets and other data.

Also, links to other proposals, MadMat threads, Icehawk threads, etc. This subforum has the greatest visibility, after all.

The thread is called Should more than just 2 new nations be added to... *drumroll*.. REDFOR
So unless we're getting redfor italy and spain I'm gonna complain, just for the heck of it, and the small amount of salt I have.
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Mon 14 Nov 2016 12:47

Wirri wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:
Sweedish_Gunner wrote:I do like that way this turned into an Italy/Spain thread. Surprised it hasn't been split into two seperate threads.


It was a Rom/Bulg thread a few dozen pages back :D

And it was a productive one, there's 6-7 productive fleshed out proposals made in this thread.

Romania by Steppewolf
Bulgaria by yours truly
Ba'athist State by andrej47

Italy by antizombies_boy
Spain by antizombies_boy
South Africa by Eukie
Portugal by Broth3r

If it doesn't incur the wrath of the mods, we could have them all listed in one megathread on this subforum, with links leading to spreadsheets and other data.

Also, links to other proposals, MadMat threads, Icehawk threads, etc. This subforum has the greatest visibility, after all.

The thread is called Should more than just 2 new nations be added to... *drumroll*.. REDFOR
So unless we're getting redfor italy and spain I'm gonna complain, just for the heck of it, and the small amount of salt I have.


Republican Spain won the Spanish civil war, Italy, crumbling at the end of WW2 had a radical communist uprising to bring around change.

Now they stand alongside the Soviet Union and its allies to bring glorious socialism to the people of Europe and liberate them from the oppressive yoke of capitalism.
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby antizombies_boy » Mon 14 Nov 2016 13:24

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:Republican Spain won the Spanish civil war, Italy, crumbling at the end of WW2 had a radical communist uprising to bring around change.

Now they stand alongside the Soviet Union and its allies to bring glorious socialism to the people of Europe and liberate them from the oppressive yoke of capitalism.


The Spanish Republica won the Spanish Civil War? What the hell!!! If Republica won we could have better weapons in wargame to Cat C. xD Go hell, I would like that Moscow were sent Spetznas (or what they had in 1933) to kill Franco when they should.

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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Mon 14 Nov 2016 16:14

Killertomato wrote:
So 15 million people died because the Kaiser didn't have a radio on his boat. :?


No, they died because he wanted to defeat Russia before it can modernize itself.

Eukie wrote:Around 1985/1986 FIR (Forza d'intervento rapido, Rapid Reaction Force) was formed, including one mechanized and one airmobile brigade, plus some other specialist units, and as an interim solution 500 APILAS rockets were acquired for them.
Various special forces used a variety of "exotic" anti-tank weapons, like RL-83 Blindicide and it's replacement C90-CR, or Carl Gustav. But given the limited number of those weapons in service, they shouldn't appear in AB.

That means Italian infantry should have extremely limited anti-tank capabilities in game. In real life 106mm M40 on company level was well widespread, and 714 MILAN launchers were also given to infantry formations. Breda Folgore, a complex and expensive weapon, seems to have been adopted in limited service from 1986 but it was unpopular.


The M40 weighs a whoppping 210 kg, but is still lighter than the Swedish Pvpj 1110 that theNorrlandsjägare use. It's the gun used by the Ontos and has pretty good stats for a RCL.

The CR90-CR could be used for a SF squad. The Blindicide would be a nice candidate for CAT C inf. It's basically a RPG-7 with less range, not great but definitly better than the Super Bazooka.


I personally wouldn't have a problem with Italy/Spain being added for REDFOR.
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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Postby Eukie » Mon 14 Nov 2016 16:27

Sgt._Pepper wrote:The CR90-CR could be used for a SF squad. The Blindicide would be a nice candidate for CAT C inf. It's basically a RPG-7 with less range, not great but definitly better than the Super Bazooka.


Regarding the Super Bazooka, it should probably get an AP boost that'd make it a less accurate Blindicide/low-ROF M72 LAW.

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