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Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:52
by FrangibleCover
Hi there,

I'd like to make it clear at this stage that I know absolutely nothing about the Italian Army. However, could we make Fucilieri the regular infantry and push the Bersaglieri sideways into the recon tab and make them shock? The precedent for this would be the British Green Jackets, who are actually very much like the Bersaglieri from what a cursory google tells me. Both units are fundamentally basic infantry. Both units have a reputation for marksmanship and great physical conditioning, giving them shock status. Both units march at a very high rate. Both units have a funny looking dress uniform :) . In this proposal the weapons would probably just be the same as they are now across two versions of the unit, although the '85 one could be cut if we can find a way to buff the Super Bazooka beyond hopelessness (This would also allow Japan to have its infantry reequipped with them without finally killing Blue Dragons totally).

Room can be made for them in the Recon tab by pushing the Carabineri down to Militia training like the other recon/police/border guards squads (Whether that is a fair assessment of their capabilities is for another time) and by removing Col Moschin since Italy already has Elite Paras in the Infantry tab and if necessary they could be represented by giving COMSUBIN GOI to the Airborne deck.

I'm really keen on how Medfor and all of the decks discussed here look though, this community initiative has finally convinced me to join up!

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:56
by Sgt._Pepper
Bougnas wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:The more, the merrier! :D

I think we should organize one proposal megathread with all the proposals in the OP.



Well currently I have found most of the stuff with intro dates, but as SIPRI is one of my main sources I may have omitted a few units, and it's hard to find the exact intro dates for infantry AT weapons, but I should release an early spreadsheet this week-end.


It's really a pity that SIPRI doesn't report Infantry weapons. :?

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:14
by HrcAk47
Sidegrade of Bersaglieri into recon tab isn't bad at all.

However, all depends on coalitions, right now the recon tab can have:

Carabinieri as regular recon
Bersaglieri as shock recon
Col Moschin as elite 10man recon
COMSUBIN as sniper team.

So, it all depends on what Spain will bring. Rarely the nations have all possible recon options filled.

There's also the theoretical possibility of having one unit of Alpini, one of Bersaglieri and one of Lagunari in inf tab, however the terribad selection of AT kinda ruins that proposal.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:26
by Broth3r
Bougnas wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:The more, the merrier! :D

I think we should organize one proposal megathread with all the proposals in the OP.



Well currently I have found most of the stuff with intro dates, but as SIPRI is one of my main sources I may have omitted a few units, and it's hard to find the exact intro dates for infantry AT weapons, but I should release an early spreadsheet this week-end.

Running into the same issues myself, frankly. And sadly, it seems my local defense forums are completely unwilling to help...

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:28
by antizombies_boy
HrcAk47 wrote:Sidegrade of Bersaglieri into recon tab isn't bad at all.

However, all depends on coalitions, right now the recon tab can have:

Carabinieri as regular recon
Bersaglieri as shock recon
Col Moschin as elite 10man recon
COMSUBIN as sniper team.

So, it all depends on what Spain will bring. Rarely the nations have all possible recon options filled.

There's also the theoretical possibility of having one unit of Alpini, one of Bersaglieri and one of Lagunari in inf tab, however the terribad selection of AT kinda ruins that proposal.


Well, let me see. The problem about this option is "what recon unit Bersaglieris should replace?" IMO Carabinieri or Col Moschin will say bye bye, or COMSUBIN if we transfrom Col Moschin into a sniper team. Spain brings this recon troops:

-U.O.E. = Elite, St 10, Uses an Incendiaty RPG.
-Guardia Civil= Militia, St 5, basic without rpg.
-Cazadpres de Montaña= Shock, St 5, light infantry.

So the Italian sniper team IMO is "unreplaceable" but it's true that I don't care the name of the unit. But, IMO the problem about Bersaglieris are the IFV family what they use. They are "mechanized" troops, everybody knows, and, making them recon we should to refuse to transport them in "heavies IFV", beacause no one nation has heavy mechanized IFV like transport option for recon.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:31
by HrcAk47
Yeah, you're right... Bersaglieri should be in the inf tab at any rate. Would be a terrible waste to give up on those IFVs.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:46
by FrangibleCover
HrcAk47 wrote:So, it all depends on what Spain will bring. Rarely the nations have all possible recon options filled.


Absolutely, I didn't actually look at Spain before I posted and it turns out they already have militia and shock recon in their proposal. This makes things trickier, certainly, especially if a French coalition option is on the cards for either deck. Currently the recon tabs of the two nation coalitions stand like this:
Spoiler : :
  • Red Dragons
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Shock
  • SovKor
    2 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite
    1 Regular
  • NORAD
    2 Elite
    1 Shock
    1 Shock Sniper
    1 Regular ATGM
  • Eurocorps
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Shock
    1 Regular (+ '85 version)
    1 Militia
  • Blue Dragons
    1 Elite
    1 Shock
    1 Regular
  • DutchGerman
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite
    1 Regular
    1 Militia
  • Landjut
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite (+ '90 version)
    1 Regular
    1 Militia

So I suppose that Medfor are already slightly overequipped in recon infantry. I definitely think that COMSUBIN should stay though, they're the descendants of Decima MAS, who were among the first naval SF. I really don't mind how they're represented: Sniper team, direct action with AT, 5 man suppressed SMG/Stinger/suppressed MG to continue their lineage of being really bloody annoying to find but easy enough to deal with.

Also, while we're thinking about the recon tab, the helicopters: How would everyone feel about the A109EOA-2 getting 4x TOW-2A like a ghetto Longbow or Kiowa Warrior? I don't think it would be OP but it would represent every role of the A109 in Italian service along with the EOA-1 transport and would mean the ATGM one gets picked rather than collecting dust at the back of the armoury while everyone fills up on Mangustas.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 22:53
by antizombies_boy
Broth3r wrote:
Bougnas wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:The more, the merrier! :D

I think we should organize one proposal megathread with all the proposals in the OP.



Well currently I have found most of the stuff with intro dates, but as SIPRI is one of my main sources I may have omitted a few units, and it's hard to find the exact intro dates for infantry AT weapons, but I should release an early spreadsheet this week-end.

Running into the same issues myself, frankly. And sadly, it seems my local defense forums are completely unwilling to help...


Let us finish Med-For and I'll try to help you, maybe we could make an Brazil-Portugal coalition.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 23:07
by antizombies_boy
FrangibleCover wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:So, it all depends on what Spain will bring. Rarely the nations have all possible recon options filled.


Absolutely, I didn't actually look at Spain before I posted and it turns out they already have militia and shock recon in their proposal. This makes things trickier, certainly, especially if a French coalition option is on the cards for either deck. Currently the recon tabs of the two nation coalitions stand like this:
Spoiler : :
  • Red Dragons
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Shock
  • SovKor
    2 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite
    1 Regular
  • NORAD
    2 Elite
    1 Shock
    1 Shock Sniper
    1 Regular ATGM
  • Eurocorps
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Shock
    1 Regular (+ '85 version)
    1 Militia
  • Blue Dragons
    1 Elite
    1 Shock
    1 Regular
  • DutchGerman
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite
    1 Regular
    1 Militia
  • Landjut
    1 Elite Sniper
    1 Elite (+ '90 version)
    1 Regular
    1 Militia

So I suppose that Medfor are already slightly overequipped in recon infantry. I definitely think that COMSUBIN should stay though, they're the descendants of Decima MAS, who were among the first naval SF. I really don't mind how they're represented: Sniper team, direct action with AT, 5 man suppressed SMG/Stinger/suppressed MG to continue their lineage of being really bloody annoying to find but easy enough to deal with.

Also, while we're thinking about the recon tab, the helicopters: How would everyone feel about the A109EOA-2 getting 4x TOW-2A like a ghetto Longbow or Kiowa Warrior? I don't think it would be OP but it would represent every role of the A109 in Italian service along with the EOA-1 transport and would mean the ATGM one gets picked rather than collecting dust at the back of the armoury while everyone fills up on Mangustas.


Maybe Carabinieri and Guardia Civil could say good bye. COMSUBIN or "sniper team" could be an strange "combo" of 2 soldiers with:
1 x International Accuracy AW/ 1 x Stinger A, without assault rifle, or something similar. I like new concepts.

About A109EOA-2, it's a good propose. BOH-GSH and A109EOA could be an interesting combo protecting one each other. I will think about this with HrcAK47 for the final italian spreadsheet.

Re: Should more than just 2 new nations be added to REDFOR?

Posted: Mon 14 Nov 2016 23:32
by Sgt._Pepper
If there was shock recon for Italy I think it should be the Alpini Paracadutisti. oOther countries also have paratroopers as shock recon for example Sweden and France. They fit the recon role better and can also come in helicopters.