Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

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kvnrthr
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Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby kvnrthr » Thu 27 Oct 2016 11:59

NOTE: This system definitely won't be implemented in RD, and probably not in future Wargames either unless Eugen decides to go for drastic changes. But it's an interesting thought of game design ideas.

IMO, current air system is mostly a micro/APM/attention game. You need to move your guns and keep your CAP up, turn your SEAD at just the right moment, turn on/off your air defense, dodge some bombs, etc. Sometimes you forget, you're fighting the ground battle, and whoops, there goes all of it.

You may not agree, but I personally don't like the system and I'd wager there are at least a few that are dissatisfied too.

So here is my crazy idea: just abstract it all away. Here is the gist of it:


CONCEPT:

Reduce WG air missions to RNG with relevant modifiers to reduce load on players and get more realism through abstraction.

CHANGES:

Spoiler : :
0. Remove individual aircraft commands. Player only assigns missions.

1. Player decides he wants to bomb/attack a certain location/unit.

2. Player assigns SEAD/fighters/artillery(to suppress AD) support to mission. Mission goes.

3. RNG rolls with result of aborted, shot down, damaged, success, etc. Modify according to presence of enemy fighters, AA in range, friendly fighters, ECM and SEAD, etc.

3.1: Fighters should not be able to affect enemy strikes for a while after escorting, to make it a tougher decision to assign fighters to a mission.


DESIRED EFFECTS:

Spoiler : :
I hope to remove a lot of "gamey" artifacts.

1. Allow SEAD and artillery to properly suppress enemy AD. SEAD can kill AD here and there now, but anything it doesn't kill can shoot just fine. Better allows them to participate in their realistic roles.

2. Fighters protect force in a passive way at all times. Currently, its time consuming to keep a CAP up and even if you do a player can do stuff like call in a bomber very close to his spawn, wait for when you're turned away, etc.

3. More abort results and less shot down.

4. Encourage forming proper missions. Currently only players with great micro can do this properly. I hope to allow all players to have this capability.



Essentially, this pretty much conflates all of Wargame's current systems into a more manageable and less finicky system. It will be easier to coordinate well-escorted strikes with this, regardless of micro capability.

Obviously, it would take away the influence of micro skill in determining air combat. I'm perfectly fine with that. Instead we replace it with a more abstractly realistic system, where a player needs to make sure his strike goes in with a proper escort rather than the opportunistic "hope enemy isn't paying attention" bombing system we have currently.

I feel that this idea might controversial. It's an extreme change, and I'm not saying its a perfect system, but how do you think this would affect the game?
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby morpher » Thu 27 Oct 2016 12:11

Aircraft handling could be improved for sure, but this is a bit too watered down. I find the current air/AA mechanics fun, I don't like the style of World In Conflict where you just point and click.

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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby Sleksa » Thu 27 Oct 2016 12:24

kvnrthr wrote:4. Encourage forming proper missions. Currently only players with great micro can do this properly. I hope to allow all players to have this capability.

....

Essentially, this pretty much conflates all of Wargame's current systems into a more manageable and less finicky system. It will be easier to coordinate well-escorted strikes with this, regardless of micro capability.


Using aircraft is one of the least micro intensive things in wargame to me, although it is very easy to lose planes with faulty commands.

Personally what I do is use matching speed sead planes with atgm's and bombers.

in a match if i want to attack something with planes, i click the sead on bottom right, give it a move order 1500-3000m in front of the target i want to attack, then shift click a second move deep in my own lines. Then i choose the atgm/bomber, and click on the actual target.

what happens in game is that the sead plane flies up front, shoots missiles at radar aa and evacs, or doesn't shoot and automatically starts flying back to home lines instead of yoloing deep into enemy air defences. The atgm/bomber flies behind the sead, attacks it's target and evacs. Unless the other side is microing their air defences, the chances of the actual attacking plane being targeted is minimal since aa units will target the first thing that comes in range.
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby Wirri » Thu 27 Oct 2016 12:29

Sounds like a cancerous style which I imagine wouldn't really work for wargame.
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby ALEX8 » Thu 27 Oct 2016 16:50

very bad ideas. I never played AoA in reboot redition just because I hate the idea of point and click for air units.

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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby Illusive » Thu 27 Oct 2016 16:57

Removing a skill based aspect and replacing it with RNG sounds like the opposite of a productive change.
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby QUAD » Thu 27 Oct 2016 17:29

Illusive wrote:Removing a skill based aspect and replacing it with RNG sounds like the opposite of a productive change.


In no universe is plane micro skillful. Yeah you can come up with creative work arounds to the system like what Sieska detailed but the system itself takes no skill whatsoever. Air to air combat is almost entirely stats and RNG, with the sole exception going to the vintage gun and rocket fighters, which I would actually say are skillful because maneuvering in dog fights is actually a thing with them and the option to unload rockets at ground targets is a nice micro-heavy ability.
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby Illusive » Thu 27 Oct 2016 18:15

QUAD wrote:
Illusive wrote:Removing a skill based aspect and replacing it with RNG sounds like the opposite of a productive change.


In no universe is plane micro skillful. Yeah you can come up with creative work arounds to the system like what Sieska detailed but the system itself takes no skill whatsoever. Air to air combat is almost entirely stats and RNG, with the sole exception going to the vintage gun and rocket fighters, which I would actually say are skillful because maneuvering in dog fights is actually a thing with them and the option to unload rockets at ground targets is a nice micro-heavy ability.

The engagements themselves are RNG based of course but what I mean is knowing how to micro planes correctly such as knowing what routing to use, how to maintain a constant CAP, knowing how to time strikes for maximum effect, and knowing what order to send planes in. If you don't think the air game is skillful, I'd ask you to watch a bad player and a good player and not see a difference in how they use their planes.
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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby orcbuster » Thu 27 Oct 2016 20:26

Illusive wrote:
QUAD wrote:
Illusive wrote:Removing a skill based aspect and replacing it with RNG sounds like the opposite of a productive change.


In no universe is plane micro skillful. Yeah you can come up with creative work arounds to the system like what Sieska detailed but the system itself takes no skill whatsoever. Air to air combat is almost entirely stats and RNG, with the sole exception going to the vintage gun and rocket fighters, which I would actually say are skillful because maneuvering in dog fights is actually a thing with them and the option to unload rockets at ground targets is a nice micro-heavy ability.

The engagements themselves are RNG based of course but what I mean is knowing how to micro planes correctly such as knowing what routing to use, how to maintain a constant CAP, knowing how to time strikes for maximum effect, and knowing what order to send planes in. If you don't think the air game is skillful, I'd ask you to watch a bad player and a good player and not see a difference in how they use their planes.


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Re: Odd Idea: Air Abstraction

Postby QUAD » Thu 27 Oct 2016 22:02

Illusive wrote:
QUAD wrote:
Illusive wrote:Removing a skill based aspect and replacing it with RNG sounds like the opposite of a productive change.


In no universe is plane micro skillful. Yeah you can come up with creative work arounds to the system like what Sieska detailed but the system itself takes no skill whatsoever. Air to air combat is almost entirely stats and RNG, with the sole exception going to the vintage gun and rocket fighters, which I would actually say are skillful because maneuvering in dog fights is actually a thing with them and the option to unload rockets at ground targets is a nice micro-heavy ability.

The engagements themselves are RNG based of course but what I mean is knowing how to micro planes correctly such as knowing what routing to use, how to maintain a constant CAP, knowing how to time strikes for maximum effect, and knowing what order to send planes in. If you don't think the air game is skillful, I'd ask you to watch a bad player and a good player and not see a difference in how they use their planes.


I know what you mean: planes are a micro tax and being able to micro planes and ground units at the same time is a skill. But that's different than saying that actually using the planes is a skill. To me anyway skill is like dropping clusters on a moving target, setting up a perfectly timed mortar smoke screen, or outside of Wargame stuff like marine T-splits or stalker blink micro/mothership core micro. (Or sniper/vehicle micro in CoH.)
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