AA Power Creep 2.0

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Fri 25 Nov 2016 12:51

JohnDaBarr wrote:Guys!
Guys!
Here is a novel idea.

How about we wait for the DLC to come out first?

You must be new here ... :D

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby urogard » Fri 25 Nov 2016 12:54

JohnDaBarr wrote:Guys!
Guys!
Here is a novel idea.

How about we wait for the DLC to come out first?

And deny us the joy of doom prophesizing?

HERESY!

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby JohnDaBarr » Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:06

You must be new here ... :D


That I am :lol:

And deny us the joy of doom prophesizing?


The funny thing is that now everyone is in a frenzied over the most notable unit and in two weeks everyone will be screaming how some IFV, everyone missed, is 5 points to cheap because that autocanon range is breaking the game.
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby homerfcb » Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:13

JohnDaBarr wrote:
You must be new here ... :D


That I am :lol:

And deny us the joy of doom prophesizing?


The funny thing is that now everyone is in a frenzied over the most notable unit and in two weeks everyone will be screaming how some IFV, everyone missed, is 5 points to cheap because that autocanon range is breaking the game.


Regarding this unit it's not that much about beeing op (Imo it's not that good, but we'll have to wait), but about beeing heavily overmodeled. Looking at this stats card is breaking immersion(I'm exaggerating a bit here) and that's not good. That does not mean that patriot and EOTS are fine. That's a different topic though.
The big nerf whiners thread, much controversal stuff, some suggestions and some more stuff, also with a big Patriot range explanation Just klick me, or go here viewtopic.php?f=155&t=48184

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby Firestarter » Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:30

I am enjoying this way too much.
Image

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby molnibalage » Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:39

Markenzwieback wrote:Image

Because EOTS Hawks and Patriots weren't bad enough already...

This is one of the most OP and unreal unit in the DB ever...
I have no idea why Neva is the uber SAM. In RL Kub totally outlassed in every paramter the Neva... YUG has Kub even today...

Xeno426 wrote:
Sleksa wrote:It's just a non-rad patriot which is balanced by the price

Makes zero sense, though. Optical lock-on simply cannot provide the same range that radar can, and EOTS is already pushing it. Having the same range as the best HAWK and BUK versions, while also being uncounterable by SEAD, is silly.

The optical system of Volhov made possible to track DC-10 AC size from 80 km. So against a tactial figter the tracking capability can be about 15-25 km depending we are sepaking about F-5 or F-111 size target.

codextero wrote:Also thermals can't give you good range information, without which you can't tell the target airspeed, which you need to make an efficient intercept.

Drop it down to an EOTS HAWK that comes on wheels with a price decrease and it's already a unique unit that's worth using. Wheels and presumably faster than 25 kph makes this thing a lot more survivable than the current batch of HAWKS.

Shrike wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:Image

Because EOTS Hawks and Patriots weren't bad enough already...

Maybe you shouldn't rely solely on air units. The air power creep of ALB was the worst and the game even more of a sitzkrieg.


This unit shuts down air harder than Patriot, because you can kill patriots by mixing a SEAD plane into a bombing train.

And set smaller range. The kinematic range of Neva is smily weaker then Kub while in WG has much larger range.
Last edited by molnibalage on Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby nuke92 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:49

molnibalage wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:Image

Because EOTS Hawks and Patriots weren't bad enough already...

This is one of the most OP and unreal unit in the DB ever...
I have no idea why Neva is the uber SAM. In RL Kub totally outlassed in every paramter the Neva... YUG has Kub even today...


And Neva too ;)
Image
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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby molnibalage » Fri 25 Nov 2016 14:19

Xeno426 wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Thermal FLIR with laser rangefinder has lock-on range of 42 km, far in excess than the missile kinematic range.

There's a reason even in 2016 radar is used to target and track things beyond 20km, despite the development of some incredibly advanced tracking systems. The atmosphere is just opaque to IR wavelengths, and this changes quite heavily depending on many atmospheric conditions that getting 42km range is something that happens incredibly rarely.

Also, LOL at laser designators with 40km range. That's some nice stuff Yugo has, despite modern targeting pods like the LITENING having ranges in the realm of 20km.

Even the OLS-35 on Su-35 has only 20 km max. LRF range on paper...

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby homerfcb » Fri 25 Nov 2016 14:37

molnibalage wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Thermal FLIR with laser rangefinder has lock-on range of 42 km, far in excess than the missile kinematic range.

There's a reason even in 2016 radar is used to target and track things beyond 20km, despite the development of some incredibly advanced tracking systems. The atmosphere is just opaque to IR wavelengths, and this changes quite heavily depending on many atmospheric conditions that getting 42km range is something that happens incredibly rarely.

Also, LOL at laser designators with 40km range. That's some nice stuff Yugo has, despite modern targeting pods like the LITENING having ranges in the realm of 20km.

Even the OLS-35 on Su-35 has only 20 km max. LRF range on paper...

One can metion that even at a range of just 20km they don't have such a great targeting accuracy. Radar is far superior, even on short ranges, even today. The only reason for the upgrade to optical systems like this is, that these old Systems are absolutely not operable in an ECM heavy environment. Optical systems are immunie to it (to some extent)[not modeled in Wargame I wish it would be, see Spoiler beyond) but they are still less accurate and provide less range compared to the Radar Systems they are based on.

In a perfect world
Spoiler : :
I would like to see an implementation like this.
Three targeting/tracking types: OPT, IR, RAD
Three different ECM values (So flares mean high ECM against , Smoke could work against OPT e.g.
Every weapon gets a "Robustness" value, so if the Robustness is higher than the ECM the Weapon does not lose on accuracy.

That would allow an accurate inclusion of Optical AA systems, but even helicopter ECM or even countermeasures on Ground units, without having weird affects. And even old AA could be made accurate without beeing accurate against modern aircraft.

And in a even more perfect world one could switch between different Targeting types, when a weapon is able to do so.
The big nerf whiners thread, much controversal stuff, some suggestions and some more stuff, also with a big Patriot range explanation Just klick me, or go here viewtopic.php?f=155&t=48184

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Re: AA Power Creep 2.0

Postby integ3r » Fri 25 Nov 2016 16:47

Ground based heavy AA is not very good in general. Barring some exceptions like Patriot, NASAMS and Otomatic.

Heavy AA aren't guaranteed kills, have SEAD weakness, cost a lot of points and supply, not to mention its vulnerability to ground units and artillery.

1 Buk M1 can't kill a plane short of very good luck.

2 Buk M1 can kill a plane but it is not likely.

3 Buk M1 provide better insurance but now you've spent a whole lot of points. :?

So people just rely on bigger quantities of IR. 3 stingers in the right place can kill planes all day.

ASF meta certainly is real right now because of their high Pk. So I don't mind good ground based AA.
Last edited by integ3r on Fri 25 Nov 2016 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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