T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby Killertomato » Sat 26 Nov 2016 22:12

I don't think there's much point to the versions of each tank that don't have missiles.
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Sat 26 Nov 2016 22:25

47andrej wrote:Fixing base T-72/T-72B issues may causing rebalancing, this one however not. Just look at it.
20161126130441_1.jpg

t72-contact5-by.jpg


It's hilarious how a modeller went through all the trouble of doing the K-5 front glacis plate, the side hull panels and then gave up on the turret.
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby hansbroger » Sat 26 Nov 2016 22:51

I just looked at this on my phone and must apologize for this not being formatted in a mobile friendly manner
[TL:DR]
Less 1960s junk, CatC is slightly skinnier, Modernizations of 1950s/1960s designs play less of a role. CatA grows slightly but not through superheavies. CatB expands the most but proportions remain reasonable (IMO). T-64, T-72 and T-80 variants play a far more significant role with the two options skewed towards different family trees. T-80A is currently removed but I am amaneable to swapping out one of the proto slots or the possibly fictitous T-80B Obr 84 for it and or the Obr 84 variant with K1.

T-72B/B1 have K1. T-72AV and T-64B1 take the place of the naked faced T-72A obr. 83" and T-72A obr. 84? Would have written T-72BV/BV1 but era is assumed.

Option 1: T-62, T-64 and T-80 become USSR flavor, leaving T-72 and T-55 to play a subsidiary role. Pros: USSR differentiated from EB. Cons: Nizhny Tagil fanboys enraged, no argument over what should be T-72BU because it isn't there.

Option 2: Gen 2/Gen 3 becomes USSR flavor, T-55/T62 both take a back seat due to the apparent impossibility of balancing them. Gen 2's like T-72 Ural will be restatted and play a more prominent role at lower point levels while variants like T-72AV and T-64B1 fill the slots they and tanks like the T-62M1 used to fill. Cons: still possibly too indulgent to Kharkovites.

Currently no prices, no stats, just pure compositional musings... Enjoy :D

Tentative lists:

We currently have 30 tank slots to work with in the Soviet tank tab with the in game breakdown as follows [Designation ('Ingame Service Date)]:
1 T-34-85 Obr 69: Junk tank (unless we're going full monty with the ISU-152M/IS-2M/T-10M this is going to be a T-55/62 in short order)
2* Protos: PT-90*, BMP-685*
4 T-55: T-55A ('70), T-55AM ('81), T-55AM2 (83), T-55AMV ('85)
5 T-62: T-62 ('61), T-62 Obr 75 ('75), T-62M1 ('84), T-62M ('84), T-62MV-1 ('89)
5 T-64: T-64A ('63), T-64B ('76), T-64BM ('83), T-64BV1 ('85), T-64BV ('88)
7 T-72: T-72 ('73), T-72A ('79), T-72B ('85), T-72B Obr 87 ('87), T-72B Obr 89 ('89), T-72BU ('93)
6* T-80: T-80 ('76), T-80B ('78), T-80BV ('85), T-80A* ('82), T-80U ('86), T-80UM ('93).

The current breakdown by Cat is as follows
12 CatC (Service date < 1980) 40% of total inventory is CatC, ~50% of CatC inventory is Gen 1/1.5 T-55/62, WW2 junk or protos*
T-34-85 Obr 69, PT-90*, BMP-685*
T-55A
T-62, T-62 Obr 75
T-64A, T-64B
T-72, T-72A
T-80, T-80B
11 CatB (Service date in 1981-1985) ~37% of total inventory is CatB, ~45% of CatB inventory is modernized Gen 1/1.5 T-55/T-62
T-55AM, T-55AM2, T-55AMV
T-62M1, T-62M
T-64BM, T-64BV1
T-72B1, T-72B
T-80BV, T-80A
7 CatA (Service date > 1986) ~23% of total inventory is CatA, ~15% of CatA inventory is modernized Gen 1.5 T-62.
T-62MV1
T-64BV
T-72B Obr 87, T-72B Obr 89, T-72BU
T-80U, T-80UM

Option 1 [T-62, T-64 and T-80 at the expense of T-55 and T-72]
Basic thoughts: [30 Tanks] (Is there an interim variant between T-80B and T-80BV ie the claimed B Obr 1984 or a later BV?)
10 CatC ~30% of total inventory down from ~40%, ~20% of CatC inventory is Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 50%
12 CatB ~43% of total inventory up from ~37%, ~34% of CatB inventory is modernized Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 45%
8 CatA ~27% of total inventory up from ~23%, ~25% of CatA inventory is modernized Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 15%

1: T-34-85 Obr 69 becomes T-55A ('74 FTC-1 LRF)
2*: Protos PT-90 and BMP-685 remain for now, can be used as reserve two slots for flexibility
2 T-55AM/M ('83 Volna FCS no missile), T-55MV T-1 ('85 engine V-46-5M)
5 T-62: T-62 Obr 75 ('75), T-62M1-1 ('83), T-62M-1 ('83), T-62M1V-1 ('89), T-62MV-1 ('89)
4 T-64 Gun: T-64A ('63), T-64B1 ('81?), T-64B1M ('83?), T-64BV1 ('85)
3 T-64 Missile: T-64B ('76), T-64BM ('83), T-64BV ('88)
3 T-80: T-80 ('76), T-80B ('78), T-80BV ('85)
4 T-80U: T-80U Obr 84 ('84 K1), T-80U ('86), T-80UD ('87), T-80UM ('93)
3 T-72 Gun: T-72 ('73), T-72A ('79), T-72B1 ('85)
3 T-72: T-72B ('85), T-72B Obr '89 ('89), T-72B Obr 90 ('90)



Option 2 [Gen 1/1.5 T-55 and T-62 aggressively pruned]
Basic thoughts
9 CatC ~30% of total inventory down from ~40%, ~20% of CatC inventory is Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 50%
13 CatB ~43% of total inventory up from ~37%, ~23% of CatB inventory is modernized Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 45%
8 CatA ~27% of total inventory up from ~23%, ~13% of CatA inventory is modernized Gen 1/1.5 MBTs compared to previous 15%

1: T-34-85 Obr 69 becomes T-55A ('74 FTC-1 LRF) 1C
2*: Protos PT-90 and BMP-685 remain for now, can be used as reserve two slots for flexibility 2C
2 T-55AM/M ('83 Volna FCS no missile), T-55MV T-1 ('85 engine V-46-5M) 2B
3 T-62: T-62 Obr 75 ('75), T-62M1-1 ('83), T-62MV-1 ('89) 1C 1B 1A
4 T-64 Gun: T-64A ('63), T-64B1 ('81?), T-64B1M ('83?), T-64BV1 ('85) 1C 3B
3 T-64 Missile: T-64B ('76), T-64BM ('83), T-64BV ('88) 2B 1A
3 T-80: T-80 ('76), T-80B ('78), T-80BV ('85) 2C 2B
4 T-80U: T-80U Obr 84? ('84 K1), T-80U ('86), T-80UD ('87), T-80UM ('93) 3A
4 T-72 Gun: T-72 ('73), T-72A ('79), T-72AV ('8X < '86) T-72B1 ('85) 2C 2B
4 T-72: T-72B ('85), T-72B Obr '89 ('89), T-72B Obr 90 ('90), T-72BU (Oby 187/188) 1B 3A
Last edited by hansbroger on Sun 27 Nov 2016 00:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby BTR » Sun 27 Nov 2016 00:21

Tanks that IMO have no place in the soviet arsenal-

T-34-85 (1969) - Phased to storage by 1970 this is too much of a useless joke. I felt that way in alpha of RD, I still feel this way now.
T-55 - As explained previously in this very thread. Nothing over the T-55A except the unused hull coax. Doesn't deserve to be occupying a card slot in such a crowded section as USSR tanks.
T-64BM - Rather arbitrarily selected irrelevant upgrade not representative of the soviet T-64 fleet. Could really be re-rolled into T-64B1 with the same entry date and the same stats without the 6TD to represent technology creep in the T-64B production.
T-62 - Again, offering nothing over its 1975 counterpart in the RD setting this is just occupying precious space in the soviet tank tab.
T-55AM2 - never an official designation, in fact I am almost sure I know the place where this came from and I believe that place is wrong. Should really be renamed into T-55AM while the current "T-55AM" re-rolls into T-55AM1
T-72B1/B - Topic-starter explained what need to happen to these tanks. At the moment these vehicles are incorrect
T-80A - Another prototype occupying a rather valid entry space for early produced T-80U's with Kontakt-1. The earliest production serial number I have identified is У12ЕТ005, meaning it was completed in Kharkov in December of 1984 and fifth to roll off the production line. This was a fairly short production run that got superseded by K-1 T-80UDs and later by proper T-80UDs.
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby hansbroger » Sun 27 Nov 2016 00:25

BTR wrote:Tanks that IMO have no place in the soviet arsenal-

T-34-85 (1969) - Phased to storage by 1970 this is too much of a useless joke. I felt that way in alpha of RD, I still feel this way now.
T-55 - As explained previously in this very thread. Nothing over the T-55A except the unused hull coax. Doesn't deserve to be occupying a card slot in such a crowded section as USSR tanks.
T-64BM - Rather arbitrarily selected irrelevant upgrade not representative of the soviet T-64 fleet. Could really be re-rolled into T-64B1 with the same entry date and the same stats without the 6TD to represent technology creep in the T-64B production.
T-62 - Again, offering nothing over its 1975 counterpart in the RD setting this is just occupying precious space in the soviet tank tab.
T-55AM2 - never an official designation, in fact I am almost sure I know the place where this came from and I believe that place is wrong. Should really be renamed into T-55AM while the current "T-55AM" re-rolls into T-55AM1
T-72B1/B - Topic-starter explained what need to happen to these tanks. At the moment these vehicles are incorrect
T-80A - Another prototype occupying a rather valid entry space for early produced T-80U's with Kontakt-1. The earliest production serial number I have identified is У12ЕТ005, meaning it was completed in Kharkov in December of 1984 and fifth to roll off the production line. This was a fairly short production run that got superseded by K-1 T-80UDs and later by proper T-80UDs.


Awesome, I'll put the T-80U (Obr 84?) in between T-80BV and T-80U Obr 86? ('86). Thus it will go T-80A/U Obr 84 ('84), T-80U Obr 86 ('86)..... That K1 coverage on the T-80U is downright sexy with no spotlight, it's too bad they couldn't use T-64 arrays though.
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby Steamfunk » Sun 27 Nov 2016 06:26

It's hilarious how a modeller went through all the trouble of doing the K-5 front glacis plate, the side hull panels and then gave up on the turret.


I think the problem is the model is actually the same as the '87 underneath. Strangely you saw this if you zoomed out on the T-72B in ALB, so the ERA model existed before the unit was actually released..

I also thought I'd point out a few things about the T-72s FCS. First of all, it does have one - the difference lies in the detail. The system developed for the T-64 was built around Kobra, which can be fired accurately out to 4000m, and on the move. The T-72 didn't have an ATGM, so all it got was the LRF and a ballistic computer with basic values for ammo types and environmental conditions.

The TPD-K1 and 1K13 sights were stabilised only in the vertical plane, but a digital goniometer was added to allow corrections to lead/cant. These were applied manually by the gunner via a second eyepiece (the 1A40-1 is binocular). Another selection switch was added, to account for newer ammo. A weather vane was not deemed necessary until the late 80s, when the 1K13-2 sight was developed. This was stabilised in both planes and allowed missiles to be fired on the move, much like the 1G42.

Nightsights remained the same photocathode type as there was insufficient space for LLTV or thermal cameras. Finally, the T-90 as it became known gained the 1A45 system and eventually SOSNA (post-USSR) which has more modern ie. smaller components, such as the Peleng/Thales TI.

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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby Azaz3l » Sun 27 Nov 2016 14:58

T-72B obr. 1989 armoring

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better resolution: http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... -89spd.jpg
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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 27 Nov 2016 15:12

Is there any better, higher tier candidate in T-55 line for Soviet Naval deck?
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby GARGEAN » Sun 27 Nov 2016 15:58

Azaz3l wrote:T-72B obr. 1989 armoring

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better resolution: http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... -89spd.jpg

Can you provide source that says about changing in hull counstruction in Obr. 89 closely? At best with photos. Cause I, when said about it, heard in answer that "this is only speculation and there is no proof blah-blah".

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Re: T-72 line authenticity errors in W:RD

Postby Bougnas » Sun 27 Nov 2016 16:00

HrcAk47 wrote:Is there any better, higher tier candidate in T-55 line for Soviet Naval deck?


Sadly no, the only possible candidate is the T-55AD that is an AM with the armor replaced with the Drozd APS but that can't be modeled in Wargame.
The only thing we can do is buff the whole T-55 series (better ROF, slightly better armor for example on the base version, T-55A replaced with a variant with the KTD-1 LRF that would be relatively similar to the T-55A TLD, better Bastion/Arkan, better AP as AFAIK the best soviet ammo was produced in 1978).


However, soviet marines didn't only use the T-55 IIRC, and IMO T-72 series up to T-72A Obr.1984 (M1 for NSWP) could be added.

For NATO, Leopard 1 and AMX 30 series, M48A5 WRSA and K1 could be added.
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