NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

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Keinutnai
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NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby Keinutnai » Fri 25 Nov 2016 08:23

How do you feel about the non-radar neva?

You have 1 card of 2 units
It costs 120
Wheeled, no armor
2800m range vs helo
4500m range vs planes.

I personally am disappointed, because with long range non radar units like EOTS Hawk I get 5 of them for a relatively cheap price in a card, and although they have only 4200 range, when I buy 4 of them I am almoat certain to shoot down a 50% ECM plane each time they shoot.

With 2 newas its unlikely, because criticals are very seldom and if it has 65% accuracy, thats 32,5% vs 50% ECM and to kill a plane I must hit it with 2 missiles, therefore I have only about 11% chance to shoot it down (0,325x0,325=0,11).

With 4 EOTS hawk I have about 30% chance to shoot it down, thus 1 card of them is enough for a game however with non-radar nevas my performance is so low that I will be forced to take radar aa if i want to shoot them down at long range.

TLDR:
1 card of EOTS HAWKS has about 3 times better performance at shooting down 50% ECM planes than a card of NEWA M1T forcing you to take other radar aa if you want long range.

I suggest following: decrease newa range from 4550m to 4200m, lower accuracy to 50%, lower price to 100 because it still has 4 missiles and increase numer of units to 4, so that 1 card of them will perform well, similar to EOTS HAWK.

With only 2 units, a proper long range non radar aa umbrella is impossible for REDFOR. I think with Yugoslavia, its perfect opportunity to give them what bluefor had for such a long time.
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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby Killertomato » Fri 25 Nov 2016 09:11

I think it's silly that it has the range and accuracy that it has.

A cut to both plus a numbers buff sounds good.
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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby Mako » Fri 25 Nov 2016 09:50

It having the same range and accuracy is ridiculous.

The Patriot is already very difficult to neutralize, making it entirely a game of random chance or "hope your opponent is an idiot" is not a good change.
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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 09:58

Mako wrote:It having the same range and accuracy is ridiculous.

The Patriot is already very difficult to neutralize, making it entirely a game of random chance or "hope your opponent is an idiot" is not a good change.


Ah, see, but Patriot and EOTS exist for quite a while now, to the massive detriment of REDFOR. Deal with it.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby Killertomato » Fri 25 Nov 2016 10:01

HrcAk47 wrote:
Mako wrote:It having the same range and accuracy is ridiculous.

The Patriot is already very difficult to neutralize, making it entirely a game of random chance or "hope your opponent is an idiot" is not a good change.


Ah, see, but Patriot and EOTS exist for quite a while now, to the massive detriment of REDFOR. Deal with it.


Zoom! There goes the point, straight over your head!
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby steppewolf » Fri 25 Nov 2016 10:07

Neva was a solid system so I don't see why this doesn't have to be reflected in the game. Romanian ones were phased out in early 2000s (some were shipped to Israel, some to US) at request of Western powers after some missiles were supposedly transfered to Yugoslavia (well, what was left of it). The common thought here about this system is that it was very good and with minimal upgrades could have been operational even today.

Besides, Patriot has far better range, it out range (or equals, have to check Soviet ones) any red SEAD missile while EOTS/HEOS are more per card so you can build a wider defensive area.

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby urogard » Fri 25 Nov 2016 10:26

EOTS Hawk costs 75 sharing same stats as base Hawk
You pay a 25% premium for the non-radar trait and 1 step drop in availability

Applying the same concept onto the NEVA M1T we end up with a price of 110 and availability of 2 which goes well with my initial feelings that the M1T is overpriced at 120 pts by at least 5-10 pts.

However as already explained, this is not a Patriot with 70 Base ACC and NATO planes have 1-2 steps higher ECM levels than PACT planes. So what 70% Acc is for the patriot would need to be at least 80-85% Acc for the NEVA for a 2 unit squad of either of those to be able to shoot down planes with comparable probability.

2 Patriots can shoot down low ECM planes quite consistently (46% chance of shooting down a 10% ECM Plane).
2 NEVAs cannot shoot down mid-ECM planes consistently (31% chance of shooting down a 20% ECM Plane, 24% chance of shooting down a 30% ECM Plane)

Yes, this completely ignores the fact that NEVA M1T gets the non-rad trait but Patriot gets better range making it able to cover a wider range despite low availability. (not saying these are comparable stats but all differences need to be kept in mind)

Proposal:
Reduce Accuracy to 55%
Price buff to 105 pts
If dropping range by 350m then price buff by another 5-10 pts
Increase base avail to 4

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby RoadkillRodger » Fri 25 Nov 2016 11:03

At 2 per card this isn't a huge deal.

The patriot is a poor comparison and is overpriced for what it actually does, given that it is physically incapable of hitting a second shot before a plane evacs.

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby Razzmann » Fri 25 Nov 2016 11:05

Patriot is definitely not overpriced.

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Re: NEVA M1T (Non-radar) Your opinion?

Postby molnibalage » Fri 25 Nov 2016 11:05

Keinutnai wrote:How do you feel about the non-radar neva?

You have 1 card of 2 units
It costs 120
Wheeled, no armor
2800m range vs helo
4500m range vs planes.

Are way too lots of SAM which are immune to SEAD while they should not be. One of them is EOTS HAWK. The optical tracking does not mean SEAD immunity because AGM-88 could use RCG signals and ever backlobe and sidelobe of these signals.

The point of optical tracking was override the problem what early jammers caused with such kind of jamming where not even distance and exact azimuth was judgable and not even manual target tracking was possible within the error and range of proximity fuse. But with optical tracking you could detect and track targets while the Dvina, Volhov and Neva used the same RCG guidance which was not SAD immune against AGM-88. AGM-45 was not able to use RCG signals, radar emission was needed.

Image
1. vertical band of ECM using jets
2. ground clutter
3-4. targets without ECM


With 2 newas its unlikely, because criticals are very seldom and if it has 65% accuracy, thats 32,5% vs 50% ECM and to kill a plane I must hit it with 2 missiles, therefore I have only about 11% chance to shoot it down (0,325x0,325=0,11).

For a stone age system giving 65% ACC is simply funny especialyl considerin kinematics of Neva...

Lots of SAMs should not be immune to SEAD, Tunguska, Crotale, etc. Because not even HC sims can model the major diffrence between AGM-88 and pre AGM-88 capability we only what can do treating all ARMs as AGM-88 with different ACC and range.

Range of Neva should be similar to Kub (SA-6).

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