Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:01

Since we're DEFCON 1 already with happening imminent, I am making this thread to consolidate the most common queries a person not familiar with Yugoslavia and JNA might have, before joining THE END IS NIGH bunch.

Disclaimer: this topic will not go through stats and pricing, however that might change when we're shown the final stats on release day. Everything seen on stream is a work in progress.

LOG

Why does the HK-41 Komandni (Command Mi-2) have that funky paint scheme?
Spoiler : :
Yugoslavia operated militarily only 15 Mi-2s, however that was mostly on paper. Most were loaned to Yugoslav Auto Moto Union to serve as heliborne road assistance, first aid and medevac (canary yellow with red cross and AMSJ logo), or to local government (white and blue). During wartime, they were expected to serve as recon/transport/liaison, and they retained their military serial numbers.

One Mi-2 (sn 12505, white 505) was converted in 1975 to a flying command post by using Marconi and Collins equipment. It was tested, and it was realized that it is, unfortunately, too tiny. So it was stripped from command equipment and restored back to its previous condition. Hence, a proto. It wasn't on my "A" list of units, however Eugen likes command helis. Its existence hurts nobody, I believe.


Why does the Kom. Odeljenje (Yugoslav cmd inf) use Gazelles?
Spoiler : :
Mostly because it is the predominant type of light helicopter used for all kinds of purposes in JNA, but more on that later. It was domestically produced by Soko, Mostar, with all parts made domestically. As such, it is by far the most appropriate helicopter. Mi-2s had no noteworthy service in JNA, and Mi-4, of which we had 24 had abysmal reliability and were decommissioned very young and gifted elsewhere.

You might ask yourself - but can they fit?

HO-42 Gazelle can carry 1 pilot and 4 passengers. By operational doctrine, it was actually made to serve as transport of command staff or liaison - as such, they served during Yugoslav Wars rather well. When NATO announced no-fly zone over Bosnia, gen. Ratko Mladić retorted with "A general does not go by foot!", and defied the no-fly zone on a daily basis. Similar usage of ferrying command staff can be seen in Syria, where Brig. Suheil "The Tiger" Hussein flies everywhere with Gazelle.

On a general note, there is an understanding between Eugen and yours truly that no infantry teams larger than 5 men will ever deploy with Gazelles. Polish Flying Clown Car and Hammerspace Humvee are not to be repeated here.


M-84AK - what is it?
Spoiler : :
It is a command variant of M-84A, having all its qualities, and possessing additional long range radios. AK is the version for JNA, while ABK was version for Kuwait (Racal Dana radios, bigger additional PSU).


INF

What is TO (Militia)?
Spoiler : :
TO stands for Teritorijalna Odbrana, Territorial Defense, the "other 6" Yugoslav armies beside the JNA. Each republic had to maintain a force made out of JNA reservists that would defend their local area from an enemy invader through partisan warfare, and support regular JNA units wherever it might.

TOs had very varied amount of weapons available to them - from Austrohungarian Mannlichers, over all sorts of war trophies, war aid, obsolete weapons, JNA standard weapons to H&K G41s (not a typo, Slovenia has good taste), with some republics even having their own weapon research and development even! (TO R Slovenije, for one, had ordered and funded the development of Gorenje MGV-176 submachinegun which held 176 rounds of .22LR in a drum, and having a bizzare rate of 1700 rpm - and that's with a ROF limiter engaged).

Some other local territorial units even maintained armored units, such was the case of TO R Srbije, which had a TO tank batallion made out of M4A3E4 76W Shermans up to mid 1980s in the town of Bor.

Anyway, their current loadout was chosen due to Thompson M1 being one of the more common items in the TO inventories, thanks to the US aid from 1952-1962. M20 Super Bazooka was not as common (yet very present, much more so than other options), and was chosen because the RB M57's weakest round has 320 mm pen of RHA - something quite OP on militia.


What is Mehanizovana Peš.? Mecha-what?
Spoiler : :
Mehanizovana Pešadija Mechanized Infantry is the line infantry of Yugoslavia. Before major changes in doctrine that happened in the late 70s with the appearance of true and proper IFVs, these guys were ready to defend the fatherland from any invader by using a very Western approach of using "battle taxis". As designed, they use Automat M57 (a MP-40 resembling SMG in 7.62x25) as their primaryweapon.AT aspect is covered with RB M57A2 (Yugoslav 44/90mm recoilless grenade launcher, more on it in the Yugo thread, search the name), and the machinegun is the legend itself, PM M53 Šarac - MG-42, the way it was meant to be. It is the weapon that made the greatest impression on Yugoslav Partisans, and every war trophy was highly cherished -even to the point that all available ammo is pooled to feed the squad machinegun, and the enemy was charged and attacked with axes and knives - morale is high as long as Šarac was screaming. It was nicknamed by the faithful sidekick horse of Serbian folk legend, Prince Marko (Kraljević Marko). It was a no-brainer how the MG-42 production lines were one of the first demands for war reparations. It remained in use to the "bitter end", when the Yugoslav version of PKMSN (PM M84) replaced it in frontline units.[/img]


What are Proleteri? What the heck is with the name? So commie. Also, why do Proleteri '90 use 5.56x45 NATO? I thought you were commie scum!
Spoiler : :
Another of Yugoslav Partisan traditions. During the WW2, a number of Partisan divisions distinguished themselves to extreme ends (noteworthy example is First Proletarian Brigade (Prva proleterska brigada), which was the first Partisan regular formation which could engage the enemy throughout the territory and engage in maneuver warfare, and throughout the war lost 4300 men from 13000 that fought in it, a whooping 35% fatality rate without counting the wounded and sick. Given their achievements, it was decided that the brigade will be named "Proleterska" as distinction and great honor, that was earned in blood. A number of other brigades earned the same distinction.

Soviet Comintern was very displeased of this new "tradition", and was considering it a mockery of the ideals of the Revolution - or as a possible opening for counterpropaganda via mocking. As such, the Yugoslav Communist Party delegation received extensive admonishment, and a stern "stop it, I mean it" from comrade S himself.

From those brigades, after the war, new units were formed - most notably, the paratroopers, marine infantry brigades and certain brigades (not all) of mechanized infantry. They were all distinguished by the "proleterska" as part of unit names. Such units got the finest gear first, and were maintained at constant battle readiness throughout the Cold war. The troops of those brigades were distinguished by special red stars on their hats - that contained golden hammer and sickle. As such, the mechanized Proleteri are one of the finest candidates for Shock status. Given that the one of the strengths of Yugoslavia is mechanized warfare, they are the most fitting, as well.

They come in two variants, 1980 CAT C, armed with Yugoslav variants of AKMS (AP M70AB, folding), RRB M80 Zolja (LAW-like disposable rocket launcher with 300mm RHA penetration and a very reliable inertial fuze - works every time, all the time) and PM M72B1, resembling RPKMS by function, differing by a few cosmetic details. Note how all the weapons are compact and foldable - loadouts were made from analyzing the original orders of battle.

And the later version, 1990 CAT A, armed with AP M80A (Yugoslav made rifle using AK principle in 5.56x45 NATO), RRB M90 Stršljen (with AT12T, they share the biggest disposable launcher title - 120 mm, and has 800-820 mm pen... even without the tandem warhead, so this is the "weaker" one) and PM M82A, a mag-fed SAW version of AP M80A, also in 5.56.

An additional word about M80 family. Yugoslavia adopted the 5.56 caliber as the successor of the 7.62x39 mm caliber, and as such, designed a myriad of weapons including it. While you might think "oh god, another AK", this one was a bit special. Few details are different. Bolt is made very light, and the rate of fire is 790 RPM for all weapons in the family. Very nicely distributed weight allows minimal recoil compared to older AKs, so they were very controllable and accurate - and another thing as well, which is extremely avant-garde for the commies. It came with Zrak-made collimator sights as standards. Each gun was fitted with one. As such, it was altogether a very modern weapon for the mid-80s, by design and by concept. While it matters nothing for Wargame, it is a neat thing to mention ;)

Serial production and rearmament was started in mid 1980s and 14000 weapons were delivered by Zastava to JNA, which used it to rearm certain Belgrade, Sarajevo and Skopje units, with the rest following no later by 1995. As such, M80 in 5.56 is the standard weapon family in the '90 units of JNA in Wargame.


Uncle Hrc, my private parts tingle when I think of Padobranci with StG-44s and MG-42. Am I gonna be okay?
Spoiler : :
Yes, you are, dear Wargame enthusiast. Redfor chainsaws are no small thing. Being a wehraboo and a commieboo evens itself out here. Sorta. There's nothing bad in liking quality weapons.

Joking aside, the Padobranci (Paratroopers) are no strangers to quality choices in their weaponry. They are sporting the famous StG-44, one of the famous first successful attempts at making an assault rifle. As well, they sport RRB M79 Osa, the licenced version of French LRAC F1, and, of course, the PM M53 Šarac, that was discussed above.

Story of StG-44 in Yugoslav use is an amazing one. By a stroke of good luck, Yugoslav partisans managed to capture nearly a quarter of all produced StG-44s (around 15000 rifles with full kit), most in mint condition. As such, they were used by elite units throughout the early Cold War era. With the arrival of more modern kit, they were slowly withdrawn... except for the elite 63. Paratrooper Brigade, which regarded the StG as one of the finest weapons there was. 63. Para evaluated all sorts of weapons. AKs, AKMs, M16s, G3s, G33s... and were still preferring the StG. Only did they leave it in mid 1980s, for Automat M85 (of the M80 family).

That set aside, the rifles still have a way to go. They were gifted to Libya as aid, together with vast quantities of its 7.92x33 Kurz ammo, where they were held in storage until the Arab Spring. Surely, some of you have noticed them popping up in huge amounts. Not only that, but after Gaddafi was democracy'd in the butt with a bayonet, certain nation made sure to pick them all up and ship them to Syria, where Assad was to be democracy'd in a similar manner. However, they ran out of ammo, and only place that produced it from 1945 onwards was Prvi Partizan, Užice ammunition factory. It is an interesting story how a peculiar weapon can be used as a tracer to explore the murky flow of arms dealing.

Hoping not to stray too much, the Padobranci '90 now have a fresh new kit. Automat M85, PORS Bumbar (Yugoslav copy of Eryx) and... PM M84 (PKMSN).

While some of you might be disappointed as who the fuck would EVER chose a fucking PKM over THE CHAINSAW - I must say that, in order to keep the loadouts as historical as possible, such move was mandatory. It is now a more specialized, tank hunting infantry that will still chew anything sub-elite thrown at it, but not as rapidly or stylishly as its '79 cousins. Its this or that, now choose wisely.

A final note on Bumbar (which was discussed a million times in the Yugo thread, for drama lovers) - it was caught in the development hell of economy collapse, civil war, 9 years of bombing and a bombing campaign. It was, however, test fired within the timeline, according to the VTI monography (Military Research Institute). It is considered to be a "alternative timeline finished and adopted" weapon, the only one in Yugoslav infantry weapon roster, much like the AT12T, G11 and other interesting projects of Cold War. As for the maximal purists, it has three alternative loadouts which are fully realistic, should the game ever turn to realism. Arguably, this is the least OP one of them, since I imagine drama if they were armed with RRB M79 Osa T, a dual purpose thermobaric weapon of 8 kg TNT equivalency AND retention of its regular HEAT qualities.

Imagine if the Spetsnaz could blast tanks as good as infantry, at the same time.


Redpill me on Brdska Peš.?
Spoiler : :
Brdska Pešadija represents the Yugoslav Light infantry/Mountain infantry. An apt choice, given that around a quarter of all JNA brigades were specialized in mountain warfare, which is highly reasonable, given the geography of the country.

It is represented in its interim appearance of the 1975s - AP M70s (Yugo AKMs) were starting to get in wide use, while the love for Šarac was still going strong. As such, its anti-infantry capabilities are very adequate, to say the least. Against armor, it uses a recoilless rifle of 82 mm caliber - BsT M60A, a domestic design, seen on quite a few vehicles and applications. A loved and hated thing which is going through a renaissance in the Middle East at the moment - there is no better weapon against a charging VBIED.

What's interesting about the BsT M60A is its wide variety of shells that it uses. For fun, let's name the most interesting ones.
There's the M60P2R, the base round. 250-ish penetration. Nothing special. Standard issue at weapon adoption, which is 1960.
Then we have the M72, the "active-reactive" round, which is launched by recoilless principle, then activates the integral rocket booster, achieving far greater range, up to 50% improvement over previous version. 300-320 mm penetration, standard issue from 1972.
And, there's the M91, improvement over M72 with it using a far better round offering 450 mm penetration. Produced since 1989.

I bet you're thinking - which one to use. I have selected 2 rounds to be represented in Wargame. My proposal was the following. Give the OT M60PB (Yugo Battle Taxi with dual RRs, M2 and M53 Sarac) the old round, and limit its range to 1225-1400 m, akin to BMP gun. The AP can be capped to something low, like 10-13, no issue.

The Light infantry would then get M72 rocket round, allowing greater range and efficiency against armor, 1575 meters, with 16 AP. This infantry is to form the backbone of squishy Moto and Airborne decks, and to somewhat alleviate the misgivings of Yugoslav ATGM infantry.

Another note - in original plan, this infantry was to have Shock status with 10, while Marines were to be regular, with 15 men, thanks to the fact that at least 1 batallion of every mtn. brigade was trained in alpine warfare (a step up in difficulty), including skiing, survival, etc.

Marines do not need the shock. If everybody is special, nobody is.


What is Mornarička Peš.?
Spoiler : :
Short and simple, marine infantry. Yugoslavia had 4 brigades of marines that were tasked in defending the coastline, islands, and the littoral area from enemy invasion, supported by the local TO and regular units.

This infantry is modelled in its 1985 loadout, with 15 men, for a sacrifice had to be made. It gets the M84 (PKMSN), sadly.

On the up side, with it's main weapon being the AP M70B1 (AKM), and its RPG is RRB M79 Osa, it offers a rather durable infantry with "meh" anti-inf performance, but punching one above when it comes to anti-armor performance. An interesting proposal, to see a REGULAR unit of 15 men which is not burdened with 5 pt shock tax. Blandest of the bland, but trying something new. It could even cost straight-up 15, and be an amazing basis for a rather obscure thing on Redfor - marine deck.


What are Yugoslav weapon teams, are they any good? (Strela 2 M/A, Šilo, PORS Fagot, PORS Drug, BsT-82)
Spoiler : :
Bunched together, here we have a number of weapon teams.

Strela 2 M/A is a special case, because Yugoslav Strela 2M was not just license produced - it was re-engineered. Sporting a significantly heavier warhead (1380 g vs. 1180 g on Strela 2M, Igla-1, Igla) filled with higher efficiency explosive mixture, and a significantly miniaturized and remade seeker for no net gain in weight or net loss of kinematic ability, Strela 2 offers HARDER punch than any other 5 pt team, with a slight boost of accuracy (read more in Yugo thread). Not world breaking, but hey, its something I guess. I very much like the concept.

Šilo team is a '90 MANPADS team. It is armed with Igla (SA-18) missiles (note that Igla-1 is a different missile!). Standard Soviet issue, it was adopted in small numbers (around 100 launch units bought regularly and adopted, plus about as much captured from interdictions of "foreign aid" to "freedom fighters"). Now, there's a bit of a fun story about it. Yugoslavia had adopted Igla-1 not so long before for testing, and it was accepted into use as LRS PVO Igla. Soon afterwards, they get the true Igla... and now you can see the impending logistical clusterfuck that was about to happen. As such, SA-18 Iglas were adopted into service as LRS PVO Šilo (Awl). Since it's a 90s unit, it's primary is AP M80.

PORS Fagot you all know full well, and I believe it requires no explanation. Yugo bought 100 launchers in 1980 and got the license for cheap. Everybody was so very excited - a modern ATGM is coming! It turned out to be extremely bad with around 20% missiles being straight up duds, and at least one missile fell apart during launch shotgunning parts in a wide arc forward. Since there's no need for an CQC ATGM shotgun in Wargame, it is modelled (very unrealistically) as actually working. Yugo bias, woot.

PORS Drug is a rather obscure home-brew ATGM intended to replace Maljutka in infantry, and potentially, on vehicles. It was adopted as PORS M80 Drug at some time during the 80s, but to keep it on the safe side, it is safely CAT A for game purposes. It is not a wunderwaffe of any sort. It has 600 mm RHA penetration and 2000 m range. Middle ground of worst aspects of Konkurs and Milan. Yay Yugo prototype bias. At least it's cheap. There was an improved version in the works, PORS Drug-M with 3000 m range and a better tandem warhead - however, we agreed on the fact that #shitatgms is the bitter aspect of Yugo flavor.

And of course, there's the BsT-82, the fire team equipped with the BsT M60A, as seen on Brdska Peš, with HE added like any other team. Nothing utterly remarkable. It will likely be a better pick than Fagot.


Why does Yugo have no flame infantry?
Spoiler : :
Only flamethrower that I could reliably track in documents and weapon lists is the Soviet ROKS flamethrower of WW2 vintage, of which we were LOANED 20 pieces for the Liberation of Belgrade in 1944. Soon after, we had to return them. Therefore, no flamers. There was a manual in the lists of Yugoslav literature for American M2 flamethrower, however that research got nowhere. Therefore, flamers were cut from the list


I read on the Yugo thread about the thermobaric Osa, why not that?
Spoiler : :
Rocket flamers with size of 5 are rarely a must have pick in decks; besides, the thermobaric Osa is a '90s development, so having them proto gimps them even further.


What about grenade infantry?
Spoiler : :
While considered (Yugo produced AGS-17 variant, and Croatia had handheld homemade revolver GLs akin to MM-1), it was again agreed not to lobby in this direction, because I did not wish to infringe on Czech national flavor. At the time, Yugo was considered being a standalone nation, and I guess the good karma of not being a flavor leech brought us the Superslavia coalition with Czechoslovakia after all.


TL;DR me on Yugo infantry
Spoiler : :
As designed, it is intended to have some pattern of commonality and sense

-3 units with PM M53 Šarac (MG-42), in regular, shock and elite flavor
-Shock Mechanized infantry with a funky name and MUH TRADITIONS employing single-use rocket launchers and mag fed SAWs
-Regular Marine infantry with 15 strength and good RPG in hopes of seeing a renaissance of 15 man inf squads
-All CAT A units use 5.56 NATO primary weapons
-ATGMs suck
-MANPADs are okay
-No flamers/rocket flamers
-Only one 1991+ weapon in infantry tab


SUP

That wheeled thing with a bunch of guns fires awfully fast (SPAT 20/3 BOV-3)

Spoiler : :
This vehicle uses a non-stabilized (no firing on the move) vehicular mount of the tripled 20 mm gun system M-55A4B3 on a lightly armored BOV chassis.

Fire control system was bought from Galileo and was further upgraded and adapted to more than one caliber type. It is called J-171 (base ver) or J-171A (with laser rangefinder). Turret is slaved to the FCS, is fully powered, and the gunner uses a small joystick to control fire.

Back-up system is called the PAMNS, and it is the horizontal grid, aptly called "South Slavic Magical Mk.1 Eyeball" in the other thread. See pics.

Base characteristics are electromechanical frictional-tachymetric FCS (measures V0 of rounds by a special sensor and inputs drop data to the FCS which corrects the elevation). Laser is optional (J-171A ser. only).

General characteristics:

Caliber: 20 mm
Gun: 20 mm M-55 (Hispano-Suiza Hs.820)
V0 of rounds: 835-850 m/s
Cadence (Rounds per second, per barrel, minimal) : 11, total 33 (1960 RPM-2250 RPM)
Effective range for fast-moving targets in air space (planes): 1500 m
Effective altitude: 1000 m
Max. horizontal range (ground targets): 5500 m
Max. vertical range: 4000 m
Ammo carried (ready to fire): 1260 rnds 20 mm (7 reloads for each gun for total of 21 full magazines)
Magazine size: 60 rnds (total 180)[


What's the deal on the wheeled and tracked 30mm? (SPAT BOV-30, SPAT FOKA)
Spoiler : :
Details on the FCS on the SPAT 30/2 BOV-30 and SPAT 30/2 Foka - Oerlikon-Contraves GunKing

Gun-King is a self-contained system providing 3D optronic tracking once the gunner has brought the sight crosshairs onto the target and started to track it. The sight provides the system’s digital computer with angular tracking data and an inbuilt laser rangefinder provides range data for processing with pre-loaded details about the ambient air and ammunition to provide an optimised fire-control solution, whose automatic insertion into the fire-control system is reported to the gunner by an audible signal. The gunner has then only to use his trigger, and the continuously updated fire-control solution is further enhanced by the muzzle velocity measurement system attached to the cannon muzzles.

The system allows extremely fast reaction to a pop-up target, and also provides great flexibility in the engagement of successive targets. The x8 magnification optics of the Gun-King sight, which has an 8° field of vision, are sufficiently sensitive to make possible night engagements in good conditions.


As an additional bonus, the SPAT 30/2 Foka has the 3-axis gun stabilization and power traverse made by SAMM, as well as the data link to Giraffe radar (not mounted on the platform itself, however, for gameplay purposes, it is considered [RAD].

SPAT 30/2 BOV-30 is not stabilized, and can only engage if vehicle is fully static. It operates without radar, as none of the prototype series (first 4) or the first series (other 4) had the datalink.


What is that ghetto thing with two rockets that is causing me Freudian penis envy? (RL-4M Praćka)
Spoiler : :
RL-4M Praćka

The last in the RL family of ground launchers of aerial missiles. By idea, they belong in the same school of thought like Chapparal or NASAMS.

Unlike those, these actually were battle tested.

Brief overview of the "family"

RL-1 Ciciban - R-13 or R-13M missiles on TAM-150 chassis - 2 kills
RL-2 Praćka ('93) - R-60 (M, MK) missile family on a M-55 gun mount
RL-2M Praćka ('99) - R-60MK with a booster made out of a NRZ 128 Munja rocket. Based on Praga vehicle
RL-4 - interim solution, R-73 lainched as-is. Testfired once only
RL-4M Praćka - R-73 boosted with S-24 missile engine. One confirmed hit that Western literature admits. A few more for later. Based on Praga.

Admittedly a 1999 design, RL-4M was selected for its specific purpose of long range antihelo defense in WG. while not being overburdened with too many missiles. While its confirmed hit happened at 15 km distance, range is kept at 3325 m ingame.

During testing vs. illumimating mortar rounds at 12 km, it had a 100% hit rate.

Systems served within the 1st Temporary AA Missile battery during the war. On 6th of June 1999, it hit an A-10, but the warhead did not detonate.


What are RS PVO Strela 1 and RS PVO Strela 10? More South Slavic bias missiles?

Spoiler : :
Nah. These are as vanilla as they get. Carry on.


Why is Yugoslav artillery section so... strange?
Spoiler : :
Most of the systems we had operational were towed. In fact, towed systems are my "broken dream" about this game. There could be so many interesting pieces of all calibers, from mountain guns to 203 mm howitzers, antitank guns with fancy FCS, etc.

However, with that not being possible, we have to make do. Therefore, Yugo can count only on SO-82 M-60PM, SO-105 Prist, SO-122 Gvozdika, and SO-155 NORA-B. Also, an interesting MLRS section containing SVLR M-77 Oganj, SVLR M-87 Orkan, and SVLR M-94 Plamen-S. So, let's begin.


Why is there only a 82 mm SP mortar? I want my 120 mm mortar forest fights meta to work!
Spoiler : :
Check your privilege. This is the only thing Yugo has that can be classified as a SP mortar - and it was developed for Iraq, made in one example.

To avoid another lolnomortar Poland or create some SP truck wombocombo, it was selected as Yugoslav only SP mortar.

Otherwise, it is rather featurless vehicle. No front M-53 Šarac, since the spare rounds are storaged there.


WW2 Priest? What the hell Eugen, this is completely unacceptable
Spoiler : :
If you didn't notice by now, flavor of Yugoslavia is "Nothing ever goes to waste". Yugo got Priests in two separate events, some in 1944, and the rest in 1952. They remained operational until late 70s-early 80s, when they were superceded by Gvozdikas.


Gvozdika
Spoiler : :
Move along. As vanilla as it gets.


HEY THAT'S A CAESAR CLONE EUGEN PLS NERF (NORA-B)
Spoiler : :
Have I got a redpill for you.

NORA-B predates Caesar by quite a number of years. So... technically, it's the other way around. What we see in game is arguably the least OP version of NORA-B. This one doesn't sport the fully automated autoloader, just the autorammer and mechanized tray (like Caesar) and "only" has the rate of fire of 6.

The very next NORA-B version (NORA-B52-K0), which is also ITF, has fully automated autoloader which fires 3 rounds in 20 seconds (9 RPM). But we opted against that one for obvious reasons. This one can be balanced against Caesar. But hey, missed you by an inch!

This particular version carries 48 shells and charges.

Interesting feature is that Yugoslavia was very advanced in researching and manufacturing gas generators for artillery shells, and supercharges for the extreme ranges. So, 40500 m Nora-B, coming soon to your neighborhood.


Yeah yeah yeah, Grad clone. Move along? (SVLR M-77 Oganj)
Spoiler : :
Wait. No it isn't. Oganj is an indigenous program, using a 128 mm caliber. Chief difference over Grad is 32 tubes on Oganj vs. 40 on Grad, 128 vs 122 mm caliber, and considerably larger warhead on Oganj (cca. 2 kgs of HE filler more), with consequently larger effect on target.

It came as a quite a surprise for me that it is currently a napalm mortar, as I presented it as a 8HE MLRS. Yugoslavia never operated incendiary warheads for it, so it will be rectified to HE soonish. Good riddance too, I personally feel like napalm is cancer, but de gustibus non est disputandum, so yeah.

Oh, and it comes with another reload, which is kinda neat. It utilizes a very neat system where loading rack and launcher align, and rack just slides the reload into the barrels, so the reload time should be quite competitive. All in all, a very neat MLRS, but nothing extremely exceptional.


Oh hey, another Smerch, woo. (SVLR M-87 Orkan)
Spoiler : :
wip


Zee Plammenwerfer! (SVLR M-94 Plamen-S)
Spoiler : :
You probably learned by now of a fabled Yugoslav smoke MLRS. And I'm sure questions exist. But, let's get rid of the most common ones.

- No, it does not deserve 8 HE. It got mixed up with Oganj, and this was a mistake.
- Yes, a nerf is coming, it will have 6 HE afterwards
- Yes, it will still smoke after the nerf. Maybe for less price. Dunno, I don't deal in prices.
- It is accurate because it has very low range (for a MLRS), and as such, dispersion is not an issue.
- The reload mechanism is the same as on Oganj, so basically an autoloader, for what it's worth.
- It fires so god damn fast because it can derp out all 32 rockets in 6.4 seconds. Realism!

With all of these features listed, it should be seen as the Yugo 120 mm SP mortar. Definitely an useful asset. After the changes hit in, you won't see it used as frequently as it is at the time of this writing, but it will still remain an excellent support asset.


HEL

What the hell is HT-40? It looks like a Mi-8...
Spoiler : :
Correct!

Together with planes, Yugoslavia loved giving internal designation to (most) of it's helicopters as well. H means Helikopter (helicopter), O means Opšti (General Purpose), T means Teretni (Cargo), S means Spasilački (Search and Rescue), N means Napadni (Attack), I means Izvidjački (Recon), P means Protivpodmornički (ASuW)...

HT-40 - Mi-8T
H-41 - Mi-2
HK-41 - Yugoslav Command Mi-2, proto
HO-42 - Yugoslav-produced Sa.342H Gazelle (Astazou III engine)
HN-42M GAMA - Attack Sa.342H Gazelle, GAMA stands for GAzelle MAlyutka
HI-42 Hera - Recon heli
HO-45 - Sa.342L Gazelle (Astazou XIV engine, more power)
HN-45M GAMA 2 - as above, better engine
HI-45 Hera 2 - recon heli with the better engine

With that being covered, here are the designations of a few other helicopters that did not made the cut for one reason or the other:
HP-43 - Ka-25PL
HP-44 - Mi-14PL
HP-46 - Ka-28
HN-47V - Mi-24V
HT-48 - Mi-17

AIR

What's with the weird codenames for planes? I thought you guys used "Mig-21", "G-4"...

Spoiler : :
This is a bit of an interesting story too.

It begins with the introduction of the MiG-21F-13 into Yugoslav Air Force. After F-86D Sabre, it was a quantum jump in capability at the time. It came with a caveat, that it's delivery was supposed to rename a secret. As such, it was named L-12 (L standing for "Lovac", or Fighter, and 21-12, secret much?).

And so on, the rest of the planes followed. Or not. Yugoslavia was preparing for the introduction of MiG-21PF, an even better version. Planes were bought, pilots and techs trained in Soviet Union, manuals and documentation was written for the "L-13"... but it never came. Soviets just went "what planes"? "what money?"

After nearly applying the "nuclear option" at the highest level of diplomacy (something something BLUgoslavia), Soviets promptly delivered... not the PF, but the PFM, again, an even superior plane, at no extra cost, and in greater quantity than the PFs ordered. And such, the L-14 was adopted.

At about this time, the older jets got retronamed into this new naming convention, the Thunderjet became L-10, Sabre became L-11, and the Sabre Dog became L-11D.

And the planes followed as such (two seaters, trainers and recon planes are omitted largely)

L-15 - MiG-21M
L-15M - MiG-21MF
(NL-16 - MiG-21UM)
L-17 - MiG-21bis
L-17K - MiG-21bisK
L-18 - MiG-29B 9.12
L-19 - Novi Avion

Groundpounders started with J for Jurišni (Sturmovik):

J-20 - Kraguj
J-21 - Jastreb
J-22 - Orao

And the dedicated trainers started with N for Nastavni (Trainer)

N-60 - G-2 Galeb
N-62 - G-4 Super Galeb
N-62M - G-4M Super Galeb


EMERGENCY EDITION - THE BUTTANGST INDUCING UNITS

WTF what is this, 30 AP ATGM AND FnF ON REDFOR??? (Grom-B doom missile and its platform, the N-62M (G-4M) Super Galeb).

Spoiler : :
To understand the approach and history behind Yugo plane launched ATGMs, we need to go back to the late 70s.

The story begins in the 70s, when a Yugoslav delegation was introduced to Kh-23 missile. For the time, it was an okay-at-best system, but in Yugoslavia, it was something quite interesting and modern (no such system up until that point), and a decision was undertaken to not just buy the missiles - but to buy the license and transfer the technology for self-manufacturing of missiles, and all its peripherals, radio command link, etc. It was intended to be a "cutting edge" weapon for the then-new Orao "fighter"-bomber, as well as kickstarting the guided missile research and production.

The purchase was approved, Soviets even upgraded us to Kh-23M, it was a good price. All the technological information was transferred, and the VTI got cracking.

Little did anyone know that it was a dead end that would be suffering in development hell for 10 whole years ironing out the kinks in something which was flawed from the start (Soviets didn't send eeeeeverything agreed upon), and at the time of completion, it was woefully obsolete. Plane using it had to fly in a straight line, maintaining link and LOS to the missile, flying well into the enemy territory. Still, the development pushed on.

Interesting thing happened parallel to that, as changes in American domestic politics allowed Yugoslavia to be offered to partake in F-20 program, with significant bonuses to sweeten the deal, including TOW missiles (story for another day, we were a cover for the final customer), and most interestingly, AGM-65B Maverick, which was immensely more advanced than the Kh-23 with its TV guidance. A certain number of missiles and LAU-117/A launch rails was taken apart for studying and reassembled, by a different team, but at this point, only concepts were being done. Mav B was successfully integrated on the Orao 2 (the version with afterburning engines), and firing tests, both at land and sea had shown the great potential of the Maverick.

In comes the year 1987, and the Kh-23M, AKA the Grom A was still at "almost there, but not just yet". It was presented at air shows, pictures taken for newspapers, integrated it on a G-4 advanced trainer, but it still didn't work reliably. At that moment, the decision was made to give up on the whole thing - immediate needs were satisfied with a great stockpile of Mavericks, which performed superbly. An idea was to make something better out of both concepts, and thus the project Grom B was started.

Unlike what Wikipedia and sites referencing it says, Grom A and Grom B have absolutely nothing in common, except for the idea that the warhead should be THICC. And so, the missile caliber was upscaled from 275 mm to 305 mm (external). Brand new HEAT cone as included with the 105 kg warhead was designed by Pretis Vogošča and later adopted into production by Krušik Valjevo. Target specification for the HEAT penetration was "5 meters reinforced concrete, 1000 mm RHA", which was achieved without much difficulty within the same year during static tests. Infiz Zemun and Teleoptik Žiroskopi developed the guidance block with two gyroscopes, together with the actuation for the fins and canards. The TV guidance head was done by EI Niš and VTI, and is considered the heart of the system. Krušik Valjevo and VTI did the engine, while Prva Petoletka Lučani provided the propellant. Despite the state breaking apart, this was one of the few systems that didn't get affected as much as the other "wunderwaffe". And so, on test firings (launch rail LAU-117/A, launch platform J-22B Orao 2), it performed as expected, so the program was considered a success. However, the now "compacted" Yugoslavia could not afford to serially produce it, save for the prototype series.

Meanwhile, the war was raging on, and the Air Force was allowed the expenditure of 64 Maverick Bs and 20 Grom As during the period 1991-1992, plus a "good number" of Maverick Bs delivered to the newly formed Air Force of Republika Srpska Army, alongside few Oraos with Mav B capability. Out of piety for the victims of the pointless civil war, I will not be giving the details of actions, however, from pure technical standpoint and after-action damage assessments, Maverick B fared considerably better over Grom A, despite it's twice as heavy warhead.

At the same time of all of this (1990-1), another big event was going on. Soko Mostar was preparing a significantly improved version of N-62 (G-4 Super Galeb), called G-4M, including gyro sight, improved hardpoints, integration of wingtip missile rails, and a number of other improvements. As the war spilled over into Bosnia, the order for evacuation of the entire factory and it's relocation to Serbia was given, and a huge number of not-yet-delivered planes plus not completed airframes was carried over to Serbia. It is important to notice that FR Yugoslavia (Serbia+Montenegro) only had 4 airbases (AFB Batajnica, AFB Slatina, AFB Ponikve, AFB Golubovci, and only so little space after the relocation of the AF units from AFB Cerklje, AFB Pleso, AFB Zadar, AFB Željava and other smaller technical centers! It was crowded! So, after the fly-over of a bunch of G-4s, the two biggest "pearls" among them were drowned. One was the s/n 23646 G-4M, and the other was the 23647, which was in a crate... where it resides even today, amusingly enough. It took quite a bit of time to actually ready the G-4M program back up again, so the first flight was done just a few days before the NATO invasion.

Why is G-4M important?

Besides Orao 2, it is the only platform that is designed to carry LAU-117/A rail, and with it, Maverick B and Grom B. With the Orao 2 being taken away for Mav B in gameplay terms, we have selected the G-4M (visually nearly the same as G-4) to be the Grom-B platform. The chief issue here is that the two planes were ready in 1991, but due to weird set of circumstances, it only flew in 1999.

Other systems carried on the plane are SO-1(unknown mod) RWR, AS-80 chaff/flare dispenser system (as standard on other Oraos and SGs) and the Elettronica ELT-459 jammers, carried on inboard pylons, which might give it 40% ECM since the jammers were 80s western tech. As well, it carries dual R-60MK rails. It can carry a gun pod on the centerline, but why should it?

Another, very eye-pleasing (at least to me) feature is how the Eugen was very open and responsive to the suggestions in camouflage design. Since the plane is a prototype during the game timeframe, it was given the glossy white paint with s/n 23646 as the real thing, however the markings were changed from FR Yugoslav to SFR Yugoslav, together with red details featured on other SFRY prototypes. End result looks amazing and very true to how it would look in that particular timeline where things do not turn to shit.

http://imgur.com/3gHCBGl.jpg



BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE THERMALS HOW CAN IT HAVE VERY GOOD OPTICS!!!! (M-84AN Navigation Tank)
Spoiler : :
Another unit that had caused quite a bit of aneurism ruptures, heart attacks and frothing at the mouth by that particular part of the community.

The M-84AN (or ABN, how it is known in Kuwaiti version) is a special variant of the M-84A main battle tank. In real life, it is equipped with a gyrocompass, inertial guidance system which gathers the distance based on the amount of rotations of one of the bogie wheels. As well, it has additional long range radio for direct command with brigade HQ, or higher. It is a dedicated unit which allows for navigation of an armored battle group through uncharted and featureless terrain, such as deserts, even in world-war conditions of GPS jamming or total destruction.

Other features (that are, however, shared with all the tanks of the M-84 series) regarding sensors are the very advanced, fully passive 2nd generation image intensifiers, independent for commander, driver and gunner, together with the high power, high accuracy LRF which is rated up to 9995 meters. Commander also has the panoramic view through his DNKS-2A sight.

This tank also benefits from huge advancement in engine power, since it runs on domestic 1000 hp V-46-6TK multifuel diesel engine, the strongest in entire Pact for it's size and price class, making it extremely agile as well.

To answer the opening question, the idea of "scout" is to be able to see and report back. The combination of a nav system, long range radio and very good optical systems on the tank itself allows for this one special and unique recon tank.


EUGEN THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE, THERMAL NEVA IS INFRINGING THE PATRIOT'S AND EOTSHAWK'S RIGHT TO BE THE BEST, NERF NOW! (The story of RS PVO Neva M1T)
Spoiler : :
Now this is an unique approach to increasing survival in a SEAD-heavy environment

With a bit of backstory, one of the biggest accomplishments of Yugoslavia, beside the angst inducing, is the centralized, real time monitoring and control of airspace which was fully modular and interoperable - all radars fed into it and targets were queued to nearby friendly units in real time.

However, the chief issue was the rapid proliferation of SEAD missiles. US roflstomp of Libyan ADN in 1986 which was quantitatively stronger and even better equipped than Yugoslav ADN forces raised some eyebrows in the VZ Kosmos Banja Luka, the chief maintenance facility of antiaircraft missile assets at Yugoslav disposal.

Ever since 1982, Yugoslavia was in posession of a very advanced (for the time) version of the Neva M1 system - the Neva M1A, whose missile guidance station could track and engage without usage of radar. The problem was, it was very limited to clear day weather only, and even then could it fail to perform satisfyingly.

The idea was to advance the idea further, and soon, the TV setup was replaced by a huge FLIR, supplemented by a laser rangefinder as the alternative mode of operation in SEAD-heavy environment, not hampered by weather and daylight as much. The system was a huge success. FLIR could discern targets at 42 kilometers on its own, which is considered very adequate, given that the kinematic range of V-601P missile is around 25 km. The system was offered to Libya, which was on a shopping spree in Yugoslavia, having ordered 200 M84 tanks, but the sanctions kinda killed the deal.

M1T system was later inherited by FR Yugoslavia, and it served within the 250th air defense brigade. Not implying anything here, but the first thing that was done after the war was the modernization program of all other Neva StVRs (missile guidance stations to ) M1T standard, with the similar upgrade applied to Kub as well.

Ingame, it is not a precedent, given that similarly capable system already exist (and on Blufor, from all the places).


This thread will be updated when I have the time to write the rest.
Last edited by HrcAk47 on Fri 9 Dec 2016 04:16, edited 10 times in total.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

delfo
Major-General
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed 6 Aug 2014 19:57
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby delfo » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:31

I am not seeing the petition page where you ask the Serb Army not to downgrade the M84 and M84A's FCS and stabilisation by upgrading it to M84AS.

Cause I'd like to see that at this point given how you stood by your values and did research by comparing the other vehicles in the game.

That's a FAQ I can assure you a lot of the old regulars have at this point.

Now I will really be done with this forum because when I see someone yell at me for 6 hours what are the stats and that he did research but didn't even bother checking the stats of the system they are upgrading to inside the game is too much for me...

Research... Opening the game and double checking values is due diligence. Add that to the FAQ.


This is crazier than when I watched the 300 release event in Thess with one particular guy from Tetovo or when I asked one guy from Shkodra about Skanderberg's relatives...

Sleksa
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2265
Joined: Tue 14 May 2013 12:26
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Sleksa » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:44

Why not explain the units that are most giving people pain in their bottom, like the recon tank, m1t upgrades, the background of the grom-b and so on, which are likely to be some of the biggest questions to be asked in comparison to what the militia unit's real life role is?

Note that this is not a raging nerf plz unacceptable question, but rather it would be nice to know the backstory of the things that'll mostly be causing the longbow/burrito levels of tears on people.
Image

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:52

delfo wrote:I am not seeing the petition page where you ask the Serb Army not to downgrade the M84 and M84A's FCS and stabilisation by upgrading it to M84AS.

Cause I'd like to see that at this point given how you stood by your values and did research by comparing the other vehicles in the game.

That's a FAQ I can assure you a lot of the old regulars have at this point.

Now I will really be done with this forum because when I see someone yell at me for 6 hours what are the stats and that he did research but didn't even bother checking the stats of the system they are upgrading to inside the game is too much for me...

Research... Opening the game and double checking values is due diligence. Add that to the FAQ.


This is crazier than when I watched the 300 release event in Thess with one particular guy from Tetovo or when I asked one guy from Shkodra about Skanderberg's relatives...


Dear Wikipedia warrior,

1. "M84AS" has the DNNS-2A sight = same fcs. Feel free to check the pics yourself. TOMS is an extra addition.
2. M-84AB1, as it's proper name is, was a RUSSIAN (yes you read it right) attempt of scoring Kuwaiti cash by slapping on K5 ERA modules of T-90s onto a M-84 loaned to Yugoimport, so that they could call it "Serbian indigenous modification", as that particular Russian company was blacklisted by Kuwait.
3. End result: Yugoimport is now blacklisted by Kuwait as well.
4. Russian company stripped the tank.
5. Yugoimport "somehow" obtained all the parts back up, but with no buyers anywhere (M-84 is a rare piece of kit), it is just being paraded around weapon expos for shits n' giggles. Serbian Army is not interested in the slightest.

Why is this a matter of discussion? It is a 2000s thing, what does the Wikipedia say?

I will point you in the direction of the 240-and-growing pages of Yugo discussion, where you can read all about it, and more. Or not. At any rate, you may go lament about три морета or whatever you enjoy somewhere else.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

User avatar
Mister Maf
Lieutenant
Posts: 1454
Joined: Sun 15 Dec 2013 23:15
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Mister Maf » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:53

How educational. Thanks for making this.
Image

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 17:54

Sleksa wrote:Why not explain the units that are most giving people pain in their bottom, like the recon tank, m1t upgrades, the background of the grom-b and so on, which are likely to be some of the biggest questions to be asked in comparison to what the militia unit's real life role is?

Note that this is not a raging nerf plz unacceptable question, but rather it would be nice to know the backstory of the things that'll mostly be causing the longbow/burrito levels of tears on people.


Aye, good call, I will focus on dem juicy bits with priority. This is just the explanation about the infantry loadouts, and the "bigger picture" in infantry deck.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

User avatar
Partibrejker
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun 22 Feb 2015 22:14
Location: Elektronska Industrija, Yugoslavia
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Partibrejker » Fri 25 Nov 2016 19:03

This is great idea, gj Hrčak! Now do it for all the Yugo units that people are arguing about, due to a general lack of knowledge or the ignorance of Yugoslavia as a military power, ty in advance! :D
Spoiler : :

User avatar
CornProducts
Colonel
Posts: 2959
Joined: Mon 7 Apr 2014 06:48
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby CornProducts » Fri 25 Nov 2016 19:59

Question:

Why come Yugoslavia has nice things? I was pretty sure Yugoslavia was red, and importantly, NOT USSR.
Image

Sleksa
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2265
Joined: Tue 14 May 2013 12:26
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Sleksa » Fri 25 Nov 2016 21:37

HrcAk47 wrote:
Sleksa wrote:Why not explain the units that are most giving people pain in their bottom, like the recon tank, m1t upgrades, the background of the grom-b and so on, which are likely to be some of the biggest questions to be asked in comparison to what the militia unit's real life role is?

Note that this is not a raging nerf plz unacceptable question, but rather it would be nice to know the backstory of the things that'll mostly be causing the longbow/burrito levels of tears on people.


Aye, good call, I will focus on dem juicy bits with priority. This is just the explanation about the infantry loadouts, and the "bigger picture" in infantry deck.


I would just suggest using this thing which seems to be a fairly comprehensive and source-including paper on pretty much most of the interesting yugo stuff coming into the game:
http://www.vti.mod.gov.rs/ntp/rad2013/2-13/0/0.pdf

For example it gives a fairly decent/believable source to the Yugoslavian antitank systems, as well as mentioning the buffed up apilas launcher being within the timeframe, which is something that casual wiki level search doesn't find. Something like this would've been a 1000 times more believable source compared to the previous links to pictures that lead to serbian defence forums. Other things included are the aa system upgrades, tank development, mlrs systems, super galeb and so on.
Image

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 25 Nov 2016 22:09

Sleksa wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:
Sleksa wrote:Why not explain the units that are most giving people pain in their bottom, like the recon tank, m1t upgrades, the background of the grom-b and so on, which are likely to be some of the biggest questions to be asked in comparison to what the militia unit's real life role is?

Note that this is not a raging nerf plz unacceptable question, but rather it would be nice to know the backstory of the things that'll mostly be causing the longbow/burrito levels of tears on people.


Aye, good call, I will focus on dem juicy bits with priority. This is just the explanation about the infantry loadouts, and the "bigger picture" in infantry deck.


I would just suggest using this thing which seems to be a fairly comprehensive and source-including paper on pretty much most of the interesting yugo stuff coming into the game:
http://www.vti.mod.gov.rs/ntp/rad2013/2-13/0/0.pdf

For example it gives a fairly decent/believable source to the Yugoslavian antitank systems, as well as mentioning the buffed up apilas launcher being within the timeframe, which is something that casual wiki level search doesn't find. Something like this would've been a 1000 times more believable source compared to the previous links to pictures that lead to serbian defence forums. Other things included are the aa system upgrades, tank development, mlrs systems, super galeb and so on.


This is amazing! It is a really neat overview of most of the stuff. But it makes me sad, because it reminds me of Yugo broken dream - towed artillery.

We easily had tens of thousands of towed artillery pieces, from 20 mm to 220 mm, from ancient to cutting edge.

Also, that 100 mm APFSDS round is the source of my rage, because the data on it is impossible to find.

Great find!
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests