Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:20

HrcAk47 wrote: American domestic politics allowed Yugoslavia to be offered to partake in F-20 program, with significant bonuses to sweeten the deal, including TOW missiles (story for another day, we were a cover for the final customer)


It's another day! Tell us, uncle Hrc, tell us :)
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 26 Nov 2016 23:56

FrangibleCover wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote: American domestic politics allowed Yugoslavia to be offered to partake in F-20 program, with significant bonuses to sweeten the deal, including TOW missiles (story for another day, we were a cover for the final customer)


It's another day! Tell us, uncle Hrc, tell us :)


Gladly.

As any good theory crafter can tell you, it is always important to have a "plan B", and so, this was supposed to be Yugoslav top tier ASF in ALB... if it had gone on Blufor.

At any rate. Late 70s and 80s were an interesting time in America, since the major re-armament programs began in order to close the capability gap they had vs. the USSR. These golden ages of the US industry gave birth to many now famous vehicles, such as Abrams, Humvee, Blackhawk, Apache, Bradley (this one had teething pains), and of course, probably the most successful - the Teen Series.

After the deals with the dinosaur-tea-producing sand people, the economy boomed on again-cheap gas, so everybody and their grandma decided to create the "next big fighter", in the most American way possible - which is through private venture.

End result was an absurd amount of excellent new planes, and the US armed forces could take only so many of the different designs. Therefore, the military-industrial-complex used influence to grab as many export permits.

Now, the US relationships with Yugoslavia were awesome. Good trade, good diplomacy - no complaints on either side.

Northrop tried to sell the "younger brother", F-5B and E Tiger in 1971 to Yugoslavia, in a really sweet deal which allowed even the license manufacture, not just for Yugoslav needs, but even to become the main manufacturing base for exports to other European countries. Pretty symbolic as well, since the chief constructor of the F-5 (A) was Veljko Gasic, a Yugoslav himself.

Yugoslav pilots were extremely satisfied with the F-5E, as we had a thing for huge engines with wings attached kind of small planes, and gave out very positive opinions.

The deal fell through, since when the Soviets heard about it, they offered a huge amount of then-state-of-the-art MiG-21M and MF... at the retardedly low dumping price, and it turned out to be a too sweet of a deal.

Back into the eighties, Northrop, still being hopeful, offers Yugoslavia the F-20. This time, they smoothened the deal by even getting the export permit for Mavericks to be offered, and even better deals regarding license production, but by then, Yugoslavia was starting the Novi Avion program.

Yugoslavia was looking for a foreign partner for NA program, and Northrop was counteroffered partnership... But they declined, having high hopes for the Tigershark. Yugoslavia later partnered with Dassault, and the rest is history.

In the end, the Northrop never managed to make the F-20 shine like teen series. But that can be attributed to the ultra-aggressive promotion of the F-16, that was given out like candy. You ain't Blufor if you don't have a F-16.

All in all, when thinking about potential Yugoslavia for ALB, the plane tree contained F-5s and F-20s rather than MiGs.
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Mike » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:13

HrcAk47 wrote:
Sgt._Pepper wrote:
QuickenRed wrote:Imagine we lived in Roman times, when salt was used as currency.


Crassus would look like a beggar compared to the forums :lol:


Maybe the Igman with the Malyutka should go down to 2100 m because it also has older ammo?


See, the thing with T-55AI Igman is that it had a 105 mm gun, in it's main iteration.

For sakes of consistency with fraternal Redfor, we decided on a 100 mm version. It has the fancy FCS, why should it not be 2275?


Because the M1, M1IP, M60A3 and T-64B all have 2100m range because they're pre-'85 for the US tanks and T-64B because reasons?
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:14

HrcAk47 wrote:All in all, when thinking about potential Yugoslavia for ALB, the plane tree contained F-5s and F-20s rather than MiGs.


I'd really have liked to see that, BLUgoslavia seems more plausible than Red Finland too but I think the way it's being done is fair enough, REDFOR needs some nice things. I'm going to be honest, the Novi Avion kind of rubs me up the wrong way, it's too prototype. IMO the ideal prototype in the game is the Chieftain Marksman: The turrets were built, the hulls were available and in about as good mechanical nick as Chieftains ever got, it used standard NATO ammo, the gap (SHORAD) was identifiable by the Devs and at the time by the British Army and IIRC the Army had tested it and said "We want this but we don't have money". If it had all kicked off in 1991 with a couple of months notice it's the sort of system I could totally see a dozen of getting chucked into the meatgrinder.

The Novi Avion is less of an obvious choice. I would have liked to see the Tigershark tbh, if Yugoslavia seriously considered it it's no more weird than the F-18C, probably even less weird since Yugoslavia had enough of an aviation industry to assemble or build Tigersharks independently of Northrop, whether or not they were RED aligned. Would it stand up as a top-tier fighter in RD? Maybe not, but then I suppose it could be fudged a little with Yugoslav or Soviet avionics and weapons.
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:17

Mike wrote:
Because the M1, M1IP, M60A3 and T-64B all have 2100m range because they're pre-'85 for the US tanks and T-64B because reasons?


I am a great proponent of unifying the standards for all. As well, I believe the tanks you had named deserve 2275 (MUCH MORE than the M60A1 ERA). Old ammo is better represented by low pen.
Last edited by HrcAk47 on Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Mike » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:18

remilia019 wrote:I said aside from the M-84AN? =w='


REDFOR had a good recon tank first. I can't remember the name but it's the best Chinese recon tab. The recon T-55 and base (or is it A1?) Leopard 1 were reroled to give life to the old tanks.
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Mike » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:19

HrcAk47 wrote:
Mike wrote:
Because the M1, M1IP, M60A3 and T-64B all have 2100m range because they're pre-'85 for the US tanks and T-64B because reasons?


I am a great proponent of unifying the standards for all. As well, I believe the tanks you had named deserve 2275 (MUCH MORE than the M60A1 ERA).


Well the standards aren't there. Either nerf to 2100m range or buff the othet tanks.
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:26

FrangibleCover wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:All in all, when thinking about potential Yugoslavia for ALB, the plane tree contained F-5s and F-20s rather than MiGs.


I'd really have liked to see that, BLUgoslavia seems more plausible than Red Finland too but I think the way it's being done is fair enough, REDFOR needs some nice things. I'm going to be honest, the Novi Avion kind of rubs me up the wrong way, it's too prototype. IMO the ideal prototype in the game is the Chieftain Marksman: The turrets were built, the hulls were available and in about as good mechanical nick as Chieftains ever got, it used standard NATO ammo, the gap (SHORAD) was identifiable by the Devs and at the time by the British Army and IIRC the Army had tested it and said "We want this but we don't have money". If it had all kicked off in 1991 with a couple of months notice it's the sort of system I could totally see a dozen of getting chucked into the meatgrinder.

The Novi Avion is less of an obvious choice. I would have liked to see the Tigershark tbh, if Yugoslavia seriously considered it it's no more weird than the F-18C, probably even less weird since Yugoslavia had enough of an aviation industry to assemble or build Tigersharks independently of Northrop, whether or not they were RED aligned. Would it stand up as a top-tier fighter in RD? Maybe not, but then I suppose it could be fudged a little with Yugoslav or Soviet avionics and weapons.


Not only was it seriously being considered, a state of the art aerodynamic institute was created with Mach 5 hypersonic tunnels, and two airplane factories were massively expanded and geared for it. Plus, a bunch of subsystems were made - FBW, cockpit, domestic phased array radar...
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:32

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This thread entertains me. I wonder if Firestarter will make another video based on this one?
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Re: Yugoslavia: The Frequently Asked Questions

Postby CornProducts » Sun 27 Nov 2016 02:40

HrcAk47 wrote:
Mike wrote:If that T-55 Igman keeps 2275m range, they need to buff the range on several more tanks.


It has exactly the same FCS as Finnish T-55 Matti, PLUS a meteosensor, plus improved three axis stab (but admittedly not as good as on M-84s).

Finnish Matti is at 70% atm.

My idea is to level them all plus the Swedish stuff to a level of commonality.

Did you suggest the accuracy levels of the various units to Eugen, or did they decide themselves?
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