Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby Guggy » Sun 27 Nov 2016 08:34

'It says here that you refused to fire at the hostile tank?'

'Yes sir'

'And your reasoning behind that?'

'Missile costs money'

'Very well. I award you the Medal of Honor'

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby jhfts » Sun 27 Nov 2016 10:40

Guggy wrote:'It says here that you refused to fire at the hostile tank?'

'Yes sir'

'And your reasoning behind that?'

'Missile costs money'

'Very well. I award you the Medal of Honor'


Hey, don't laugh too hard. Just because Uncle Sam's army is flush with cash now doesn't mean it will always be. Plenty of battles in the past where artillery ammunition was 'rationed'; it's entirely imaginable to see the same thing happening some day down the road with ATGMs.

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby codextero » Sun 27 Nov 2016 10:45

jhfts wrote:
Guggy wrote:'It says here that you refused to fire at the hostile tank?'

'Yes sir'

'And your reasoning behind that?'

'Missile costs money'

'Very well. I award you the Medal of Honor'


Hey, don't laugh too hard. Just because Uncle Sam's army is flush with cash now doesn't mean it will always be. Plenty of battles in the past where artillery ammunition was 'rationed'; it's entirely imaginable to see the same thing happening some day down the road with ATGMs.


Very obviously could happen, but modern ATGMs have a much shorter shelf life than artillery shells. IIRC javelins have to be re-certified every few years, and stay good on the shelf for about 15 or so. After that, they aren't guaranteed to work, so Uncle Sam either shoots off or scraps the old ones and buys new stock.

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby keldon » Sun 27 Nov 2016 16:31

jhfts wrote:
keldon wrote:HJ-8 with it's original launcher+guidance system weights around 60 kg. The Chu-MAT with it's launcher and laser designator weights around 70 kg. The Chu-MAT is in the game as a 2 men team, the HJ-8 is not in the game.


I'd agree that the Chu-Mat is definitely pushing it, but I think that the saving grace is that a) the missile only weighs 12 kg, as opposed to 24 kg for the HJ-8, so reloads can be plausibly carried, and b) the separate (remote) designator isn't necessary, and the missile can be aimed from the tripod.

Also, China had the SACLOS HJ-73B by the early 90's, which could plausibly have similar stats to the MILAN 1. Not great, but much better than no ATGM team at all.


The Chu-MAT is SALH and needs the laser designator for guidance, else the missile is going nowhere. The normal number of men in a Chu-MAT squad is 4. For a HJ-8 team it is 5, also the missile weights less than 20kg each, somewhere in the 16-18kg range, some versions are lighter.

The HJ-73B is available in late 80s and fills in the role of "light ATGM" as it's predecessor.

Frankly, I'm under the impression it is done to intentional gimp that particular capability of the coalition, would explain why RD is stuck with Fagot-M, while other better systems (ITF, portable etc.) are left out.
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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby Bougnas » Sun 27 Nov 2016 16:42

keldon wrote:
jhfts wrote:
keldon wrote:HJ-8 with it's original launcher+guidance system weights around 60 kg. The Chu-MAT with it's launcher and laser designator weights around 70 kg. The Chu-MAT is in the game as a 2 men team, the HJ-8 is not in the game.


I'd agree that the Chu-Mat is definitely pushing it, but I think that the saving grace is that a) the missile only weighs 12 kg, as opposed to 24 kg for the HJ-8, so reloads can be plausibly carried, and b) the separate (remote) designator isn't necessary, and the missile can be aimed from the tripod.

Also, China had the SACLOS HJ-73B by the early 90's, which could plausibly have similar stats to the MILAN 1. Not great, but much better than no ATGM team at all.


The Chu-MAT is SALH and needs the laser designator for guidance, else the missile is going nowhere. The normal number of men in a Chu-MAT squad is 4. For a HJ-8 team it is 5, also the missile weights less than 20kg each, somewhere in the 16-18kg range, some versions are lighter.

The HJ-73B is available in late 80s and fills in the role of "light ATGM" as it's predecessor.

Frankly, I'm under the impression it is done to intentional gimp that particular capability of the coalition, would explain why RD is stuck with Fagot-M, while other better systems (ITF, portable etc.) are left out.


Honestly I don't see how a 5 man HJ-8A team shouldn't be in the game. If it had 60% accuracy, it would just be a slightly inferior Dorban LR with increased survivability but worse stealth. Moreover it would only be available to CAT-A games (lol)


Eugen make it happen, I want an accurate HJ-8A on jeeps, inafntry, ZDF-89 and Z-9!
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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby cuski » Tue 29 Nov 2016 02:09

jhfts wrote:Hey, don't laugh too hard. Just because Uncle Sam's army is flush with cash now doesn't mean it will always be. Plenty of battles in the past where artillery ammunition was 'rationed'; it's entirely imaginable to see the same thing happening some day down the road with ATGMs.


Didn't they remove the full-auto mode from the M-16 for that reason, i.e. waste of ammo?

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby codextero » Tue 29 Nov 2016 02:38

cuski wrote:
jhfts wrote:Hey, don't laugh too hard. Just because Uncle Sam's army is flush with cash now doesn't mean it will always be. Plenty of battles in the past where artillery ammunition was 'rationed'; it's entirely imaginable to see the same thing happening some day down the road with ATGMs.


Didn't they remove the full-auto mode from the M-16 for that reason, i.e. waste of ammo?


Ammo conservation is one part of it, the other is that it's hard to train your average recruit to use an automatic weapon effectively, because the natural tendency is to hold the trigger until the magazine runs out and not hit anything.

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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby Keinutnai » Wed 30 Nov 2016 23:45

jhfts wrote:Please forgive me if there's a simple answer for this, but I've wondered this since RD came out, and I'd thought that I'd finally ask...

Why aren't there any Malyutka ATGM teams in the game?

The Malyutka is well-known, if little-used, in Wargame due to its presence on BMP-1s and the BRDM-2 tank destroyers. But the real-life Malyutka was very much a man-portable weapon too; small infantry teams could carry it into combat in a (rather oversized) plastic case.

The lack of Malyutka infantry teams plays out rather oddly for some REDFOR factions. China is without infantry ATGMs, despite the fact that it had the baseline HJ-73 (Malyutka copy) by the early 80's, and SACLOS versions by the early 90's. And now, it seem that we're getting Yugoslavia with Fagot teams, based on a tiny one-off arms order, instead of the much more prolific Malyutka.

By the end of the 1980's, the Malyutka was certainly old, but it had it's uses. It had better range than the Fagot (if longer minimum range too), and later versions had SACLOS guidance and a decent warhead. If we have T-34 and Shermans running about the battlefield, the Malyutka certainly doesn't seem out of place.

So, why no Malyutka infantry? DId the devs forbid it at some point? If so, why?


I was hoping to see them too.
Really upset they arent included.

I was hoping to see some Yugoslav Mountain troops...
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Re: Why no Malyutka (Infantry) Teams?

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Thu 1 Dec 2016 00:16

The mountain troops are there, but they have a recoilless rifle.
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