The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

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HardlyCriket
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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby HardlyCriket » Tue 29 Nov 2016 14:07

I wouldn't classify SOVKOR as one of Red's nice things. It was a pointless waste of time and all you got out of the deal was another card of T-90s. Those 5 activation points you lost were better spent elsewhere, namely a full air tab. Hell NK had been nerfed so much because of this coalition that I was even starting to wonder if you would be better off just playing as China instead of RD. They only reason they stayed in my deck was because China, unlike the Soviets, actually needs a super heavy.

The Soviets have one problem, cost-ineffective infantry. They're expensive and they have crap MGs. SOVKOR did not solve that problem; NK troops are terrible.
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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby ZenTeapot » Tue 29 Nov 2016 15:23

Razzmann wrote:
thenosh wrote:
Razzmann wrote:It is written in the OP.


I don't quite understand what this should mean? They couldn't buff Red Dragons without buffing SovKor, nor nerfing it the same way? Or is it because people preferred SovKor over Red Dragons? In any way, buffing chinese tanks, which seems to happen wouldn't have buffed SovKor, would it? Can you explain it to me?

The problem is the following.
You can't buff / nerf RD / SovKor through North Korea without affecting the other coalition, which limits the design space for the buffs especially.
For example, SovKor basically was the reason for the B-5 nerf. RD did not need the nerf.

Now, technically, you can buff RD through China alone, but that would mean creating a SovKor 2.0 where North Korea adds a T-90 and that is about it.

At the same time they can't nerf SovKor through USSR because (like FLX posted in the thread) they don't want to do that.

Now removing SovKor allows Eugen to give North Korea some actually strong units (e.g. what they did with the Chon Ma Ho V) without having to bother about SovKor. And at the same time they can buff USSR.

I don't think a lot of people think SovKor was actually OP.


I honestly don't get that argument either. Why not buff China alone? How is that gonna create SovKor 2.0? I'm all for removing SovKor, but buffing China would have solved a lot of problems, and it really has nothing to do with SovKor. Personally I feel SovKor is an awkward faction to have anyway, basically Sov + T90 and B-5, which really don't add much, and don't deserve to be a unique faction. They added four tank variants to China, that don't solve any real problem. It's a gesture of effort, but I fail to understand their reasoning behind it. Why couldn't they just address the real issues? So frustrated, face palm awh.

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby serg123 » Tue 29 Nov 2016 15:39

Tiera wrote:
serg123 wrote:
Now its all over...

Yugo>>SOVKOR.
You won't miss them at all.

Ah i see now a real reason, why sovkor was removed.
Because players will be forced to buy yugo dlc. That's very clever..

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby karsayor » Tue 29 Nov 2016 16:33

Thanks for removing sovkor. It was just cheese adding a B5, T90 and cheap infantry to a USSR deck that is already good enough to compete with everyone.

And Red Dragons can finally be good ! 8-)

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 29 Nov 2016 17:52

serg123 wrote:
Tiera wrote:
serg123 wrote:
Now its all over...

Yugo>>SOVKOR.
You won't miss them at all.

Ah i see now a real reason, why sovkor was removed.
Because players will be forced to buy yugo dlc. That's very clever..


Yeah, that's definitely it. :roll:
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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby thenosh » Tue 29 Nov 2016 22:18

Razzmann wrote:
thenosh wrote:
Razzmann wrote:It is written in the OP.


I don't quite understand what this should mean? They couldn't buff Red Dragons without buffing SovKor, nor nerfing it the same way? Or is it because people preferred SovKor over Red Dragons? In any way, buffing chinese tanks, which seems to happen wouldn't have buffed SovKor, would it? Can you explain it to me?

The problem is the following.
You can't buff / nerf RD / SovKor through North Korea without affecting the other coalition, which limits the design space for the buffs especially.
For example, SovKor basically was the reason for the B-5 nerf. RD did not need the nerf.

Now, technically, you can buff RD through China alone, but that would mean creating a SovKor 2.0 where North Korea adds a T-90 and that is about it.

At the same time they can't nerf SovKor through USSR because (like FLX posted in the thread) they don't want to do that.

Now removing SovKor allows Eugen to give North Korea some actually strong units (e.g. what they did with the Chon Ma Ho V) without having to bother about SovKor. And at the same time they can buff USSR.

I don't think a lot of people think SovKor was actually OP.


Huh... interesting. I really thought they'd take it out because people saying it'd be too strong. But this explanation seems even less reasonable to me. It has always been like this that if you buff/nerf a nation it will go hand in hand with the according coalition. Also I don't understand why Red Dragons is portrayed as being a very bad coalition and suffering under SovKor here.
What I read is that they add new chinese tanks, which wouldn't bother SovKor in any way... but thenagain... I'll wait until the DLC is out and see for myself wether the removal was necessary or not. Right now it just seems like they did something a lot of people (or some relevant few) shouted for, while after it happened, nobody knows why they wanted it in the first place. I mean if we go here, why not remove Norad so that we can finally buff US and nerf Canada, or however this was meant?
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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby mvp7 » Wed 30 Nov 2016 00:59

I like the Baltic Front coalition name. The Entente is also good but would have been better if it had a bit more specific name like Red Entente to differentiate it from all the historical Ententes.

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby Demonicjapsel » Wed 30 Nov 2016 00:59

thenosh wrote:
Huh... interesting. I really thought they'd take it out because people saying it'd be too strong. But this explanation seems even less reasonable to me. It has always been like this that if you buff/nerf a nation it will go hand in hand with the according coalition. Also I don't understand why Red Dragons is portrayed as being a very bad coalition and suffering under SovKor here.
What I read is that they add new chinese tanks, which wouldn't bother SovKor in any way... but thenagain... I'll wait until the DLC is out and see for myself wether the removal was necessary or not. Right now it just seems like they did something a lot of people (or some relevant few) shouted for, while after it happened, nobody knows why they wanted it in the first place. I mean if we go here, why not remove Norad so that we can finally buff US and nerf Canada, or however this was meant?


Not true. The problem with SOVKOR and Red Dragons is a problem that Canada being in NORAD and CMW doesn't have.

To understand the problem, you first need to realize what the purpose of a coalition is in the first place, 2 (or more) countries fill out eachother's gaps in capabilities. NSWP is prolly the best example, where each of the 3 members offer a capability that the others lack. The East germans offer a neat top tier ASF, while the Czechs bring a nice high tech thermobaric bomber to the table. Etc. Each nation attributes to the coalition and in turn, each major weakness is covered.

The problem with SOVKOR was that in order to keep it balanced, there had be to things nerfed. Because the USSR also needed to stand alone, nerfing could not be done in the USSR part of the tabs. Instead, the lopsided coalition OPness was fixed by Nerfing the North Korean units (you can go and look it up in the patch history if you don't believe me). This meant that all units, that offered any interest to the USSR (mainly cheaper stuff) was nerfed because it was deemed OP.

The problem with this was that it rendered units that were absolutely needed in RD completely useless. the B-5 was RD's only good Iron carpet bomber. it got nerfed to the point that if you wanted a decent amount of them (read, more then one) you needed to hand over nearly half of your plane tab to them. For the USSR this was a non issue, since it had plenty of other USSR craft to take up the slack, IL-28 Su-24 etc.

This happened with nearly every single useful unit in the North Korean Roster, the B-5, Mi 24 (which is RD's only true gunship) etc. All units that were needed in RD got nerfed because they were too cost/card efficient when used in SOVKOR.
the Removal of SOVKOR allows the Norks to have useful units, while at the same time preventing that RD becomes China with a T-90, given that was not the original idea of having coalitions.

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby eR_Spectre » Wed 30 Nov 2016 01:27

I don't really care about SOVKOR, never played this coalition nor had intention to do so.

So buff China, buff NorKor... but please, when you be killing SovKor, kill the NorKor's T-90 in the process. This tank in hands of underfeed worshippers of great Kim drives me crazy.

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Re: The unalterable cycle of life, a.k.a. "SOVKOR must die!"

Postby frostypooky » Wed 30 Nov 2016 01:29

at this point, we might as well justify T-90 by saying "if Hezbollah can get a T-90, NK can get a T-90", lol

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