Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

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raventhefuhrer
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Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby raventhefuhrer » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:29

Hello.

The four vehicles I listed in the title (BTR-60, OT-Tab 71, SKOT-2A and OT-64A) are a family of extremely similar REDFOR infantry vehicles that feature fast movement speed, but have only 1 armor all around and a KPVT heavy machine gun. Right now they are all valued at 15 points, but I feel this is a grave error and I'll explain why.

For a long time the KPVT gun has been what I would consider overvalued. Its slight armor piercing ability has always been a defining characteristic in Wargame which sets it apart from other vehicle mounted machine guns, such as the Browning. This has historically led to a 5 point increase in price over otherwise comparable vehicles (Fuchs, VAB for example) who had worse machine guns. While a price increase for the KPVT is probably warranted, the fact is that Wargame's 5 point increment system forces you to pay 50% more (15 vs 10 points) for a machine gun of dubious quality and very low accuracy, on a vehicle that dies to everything and which you're primarily using for transportation rather than fighting. The end result is that in the name of balancing an awkward machine gun, much of REDFOR's infantry effectively has a 5 point 'tax' on it.

For some nations this doesn't matter much. Poland & North Korea have a 10 point SKOT/BTR-60 variant that they can elect to take. USSR and DDR have the BTR-80, which costs the same as the BTR-60PB but with double the accuracy on its gun, and 2 armor for an effective little package.

Where this is most problematic is nations like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, who are coalitioned with each other and so can't rely on a coalition partner to make up for weakness in wheeled vehicles. And in the case of Czechs, have subpar infantry anyways that now have to cost an extra 5 points for no good reason on top of that.

The BTR-60PB and its equivalents really should be 10 points. There's no way around it, while the BTR-80 is a good buy at 15 points because of its armor and workable gun. The BTR-60PB simply is not. However, it's problematic to simply cut the BTR-60PB cost and call it done.

Therefore my proposal: I think the BTR-60PB should be reduced to 10 points and receive a corresponding nerf to its gun. My ideal would be to take away the AP value on the early KPVTs and replace it with a high HE value. There is precedent for this - for example, the Browning Machine gun has .75 HE, rather than the standard .5 HE for machine guns. Why not make the BTR-60PB .75 HE as well, or possibly even 1 HE if the accuracy is low enough to balance the damage increase? This change need not effect the BTR-80s.

I know this is an imperfect solution, but I believe it is a far better idea than leaving the BTR-60PB and its equivalents as so egregiously overpriced.
Last edited by raventhefuhrer on Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Please consider a BTR-70/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby wargamer1985 » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:34

raventhefuhrer wrote:Hello.

The four vehicles I listed in the title (BTR-70, OT-Tab 71, SKOT-2A and OT-64A) are a family of extremely similar REDFOR infantry vehicles that feature fast movement speed, but (most of them) have only 1 armor all around and a KPVT heavy machine gun. Right now they are all valued at 15 points, but I feel this is a grave error and I'll explain why.

For a long time the KPVT gun has been what I would consider overvalued. Its slight armor piercing ability has always been a defining characteristic in Wargame which sets it apart from other vehicle mounted machine guns, such as the Browning. This has historically led to a 5 point increase in price over otherwise comparable vehicles (Fuchs, VAB for example) who had worse machine guns. While a price increase for the KPVT is probably warranted, the fact is that Wargame's 5 point increment system forces you to pay 50% more (15 vs 10 points) for a machine gun of dubious quality and very low accuracy, on a vehicle that dies to everything and which you're primarily using for transportation rather than fighting. The end result is that in the name of balancing an awkward machine gun, much of REDFOR's infantry effectively has a 5 point 'tax' on it.

For some nations this doesn't matter much. Poland & North Korea have a 10 point SKOT/BTR-60 variant that they can elect to take. USSR and DDR have the BTR-80, which costs the same as the BTR-70 but with double the accuracy on its gun, and 2 armor for an effective little package.

Where this is most problematic is nations like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, who are coalitioned with each other and so can't rely on a coalition partner to make up for weakness in wheeled vehicles. And in the case of Czechs, have subpar infantry anyways that now have to cost an extra 5 points for no good reason on top of that.

The BTR-70 and its equivalents really should be 10 points. There's no way around it, while the BTR-80 is a good buy at 15 points because of its armor and workable gun. The BTR-70 simply is not. However, it's problematic to simply cut the BTR-70 cost and call it done.

Therefore my proposal: I think the BTR-70 should be reduced to 10 points and receive a corresponding nerf to its gun. My ideal would be to take away the AP value on the early KPVTs and replace it with a high HE value. There is precedent for this - for example, the Browning Machine gun has .75 HE, rather than the standard .5 HE for machine guns. You may also consider lowing the BTR-70's front armor to 1, to keep it in line with the SKOT-2A, OT-64A, and OT-TAB 71. Why not make the BTR-70 .75 HE as well, or possibly even 1 HE if the accuracy is low enough to balance the damage increase? This change need not effect the BTR-80s.

I know this is an imperfect solution, but I believe it is a far better idea than leaving the BTR-70 and its equivalents as so egregiously overpriced.

I agree, these guys could use some love. While I do think you solution on its own merits is perfectly fine as it is, maybe an alternative solution would be simply dropping their price but impacting their availability? This, too, is not a perfect solution, but it is a counter-proposal if your original idea is considered unsatisfactory for whatever reason.

Either way, a big +1
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby raventhefuhrer » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:40

For clarity, my original post said the BTR-70 instead of the BTR-60PB but I edited it to name the proper unit. The BTR-70 needs a price buff as well, but it's not quite as egregious and the BTR-60PB is more apples-to-apples compared to the other transports mentioned in the thread.

I wouldn't want an availability nerf because then you're still paying the 'tax' I mentioned. It's just now instead of paying it in points, you're paying it in units per card/deck efficiency. Since these transports are on the low end already, there's no reason to artificially gimp availability. But I agree that idea would still be an improvement over the current system.
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby Vestly » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:44

I think there are many transports (especialy redfor because of the kpvt), which need price buff..
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Maybe even btr-80a could get some love

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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby Bougnas » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:49

It's the XA that needs a price nerf.
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby another505 » Thu 1 Dec 2016 19:59

Oh please, yes
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby wargamer1985 » Thu 1 Dec 2016 20:07

raventhefuhrer wrote:For clarity, my original post said the BTR-70 instead of the BTR-60PB but I edited it to name the proper unit. The BTR-70 needs a price buff as well, but it's not quite as egregious and the BTR-60PB is more apples-to-apples compared to the other transports mentioned in the thread.

I wouldn't want an availability nerf because then you're still paying the 'tax' I mentioned. It's just now instead of paying it in points, you're paying it in units per card/deck efficiency. Since these transports are on the low end already, there's no reason to artificially gimp availability. But I agree that idea would still be an improvement over the current system.

Oh I agree, I would prefer the Nerfed KPVT over a gimped card, but it is an alternative solution just in case.

@UP BTR-80A

Never thought I would see the day that the BTR-80A is called underpowered, really the XA-185 needs a price Nerf to 20 points, the BTR-80A does not need to be brought to its level.
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby urogard » Thu 1 Dec 2016 20:22

wheeled bushmaster 2 for only 15 points is a slap in the face to everyone
price nerf NAOW!

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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby wargamer1985 » Thu 1 Dec 2016 20:24

urogard wrote:wheeled bushmaster 2 for only 15 points is a slap in the face to everyone
price nerf NAOW!

It could probably even go to 25 points and sit very comfortably there, being the ultimate glass cannon. But I think putting it at 20 points first would be best, and see how it performs there, before bringing it all the way up to 25 points.
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Re: Please consider a BTR-60PB/OT-TAB-71/SKOT-2A/OT-64A price buff

Postby Razzmann » Thu 1 Dec 2016 20:28

It's a long overdue change.

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