Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Steamfunk
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 5 Dec 2016 22:42

The 9 RPM are due to worse autoloaders on the T-72 AFAIK, which is also why REDFOR tanks with better autoloaders have better ROF(T-64/80/90, M-84/91).


The M-84 uses the same autoloader as the T-72, because it's at the of the day - it's a T-72. Basically they went from 10 RPM in the beta to 9, except for magical tanks like the Leclerc and a few others.

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 5 Dec 2016 23:09

Vestly wrote:
Razzmann wrote:
Vestly wrote:Moderna and Vihor had comparable FCS

Source?


http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product.php?prodID=1221&printmode=1
http://www.ztsspecial.sk/en/special-production/125-mm-tank-gun-2a46-2a46ms-t-72
http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/29016/SVK-T-72M2-Moderna - slovak language
etc.

The older version (T-72M1A) already got Slovenian EFCS3. After the break-up of Yugoslavia, Slovenians upgraded their M84 with the same fcs (EFCS3)


In game we have T-72M2 Moderna with TIGS (you can clearly see it on the model), which is even better then EFCS3. Moderna also has new main gun, etc.


Hoho, very nice! I knew I recognized that LIRD from somewhere - I thought it was just a coincidence, they were pretty fashionable back in the 90s.

I must correct you, however. Fotona EFCS series was not what was used on JNA M-84 tanks or Vihor. Those FCSs were made by Rudi Čajavec Banja Luka (different company).

EFCS contract was awarded to Fotona to make an upgrade for T-72M in Yugoslav use (72 pieces) to bring them up to modern levels, for cheap(er than the FCS SUV M-84A). It was later considered as a competitor in Igman project, targeting largely export market. It had a lot of success abroad, particularly when the (newly independent) Slovenian and Croatian militaries later decided to re-FCS their tanks (due to the lack of logistical support and parts from Rudi Čajavec company, now located in R. Srpska). Also, Croats completed their Vihor with Fotona parts and M-84A spares, so the way it exists IRL, it is a Frankenstein tank of sorts. Only later did it crystalize itself into "proper" Degman (not the 1995 version). When it comes to proper Vihor program (as intended for JNA), Fotona had a few subcontracts - integration of thermals, LIRD and muzzle reference system. All systems were later used in the Slovenian army, but on M-55S and M-84S tanks. But I digress.

The most interesting part in your links is this, describing the model we currently have in game:

T-72M2 MBT
This is a further development of the above with the following additional modifications, new fire-control system with a ballistic computer, new intercom and radio set, modernised 125 mm smoothbore gun 2A46M2 and removal of two 20 mm cannon and installation of 30 mm 2A42' cannon on right side of turret only. The primary role of the latter is to engage low-flying aircraft and helicopters.

The tank commander has a stabilised SFIM MVS 580 day/thermal panoramic sight incorporating a laser range-finder while the gunner has a FontanaTIGS day/ thermal night sight with integrated electronic module with ballistic computer, control panel and CRT display. The gunner retains the standard TPD-K1 stabilised day sight which incorporates a laser rangefinder.

One prototype of this version has been completed and tested.


While I read this particular bit of text many times before, it only now clicked for me. It's not "FontanaTIGS". It is Fotona TIGS, a system I know a fair share about. It is a thermal imager module developed for Vihor which now goes as a part an upgrade of EFCS-3-84 - which confirms that it is actually the Fotona's FCS, with thermals involved. Exciting! Here's a few photos of testing of the subsystems for what was to become "M-84S" (but didn't). Note the muzzle reference system. From what I know, the huge lot of these thermals was intended to be for Vihor.

Also, note that the reason why this M-84 variant uses thermal, 2nd gen night and day sights at the same time is due to the specific shape of the turret, which was casted with one sights hole - and not two, like all other tanks in T-72 family. If applied to T-72s, they would only have one "bulge", with the TIGS (see the turret model of the Vihor ingame), while day/night sight module goes instead of the TPD-K1 module.

So, what we know about the base system (without thermals or muzzle reference) can be summarized as such:
Spoiler : :
- stabilizirana dnevno/nočna laserska nišanska sprava za namerilca (SGS-84) (Stabilized Day/Night Laser sight for Gunner)
- servo elektronika (SEB-72A) (Servo electronics)
- senzor elevacije (GES-84) (Gun Elevation sensor)
- zaščitna kapa (TPC-84) (Ballistic cover for the external part of the sight)
- mehanična vez med topom i SGS-84 (MLG-84) (Mechanical link between the gun and the sight)
- balistični računalnik (FCC-84) (Ballistic computer)
- komandirjev panel (COP-72A) (Commander's panel)
- zunanji zaslon za komandirja (CRD-72A) (External screen for commander)
- modul namerilca (GCB-84) (Gunner's module)
- vmesni modul DIB-84 (Intermediate module)
- SGS obroč za pritrditev (MOR-55B) (SGS mounting ring)
- senzorji (SNS-84) (Sensors)
- elektronika žiroskopa (GEB-84) (Gyroblock electronics)
- meteo-senzor (MES-84) (Meteosensor)
- senzor temperature smodnika (PTS-72A) (Gunpowder temperature sensor)



Do you happen to have any data on the gun stabilization on Moderna? Fotona did offer such upgrade to my knowledge (GEB-84), but even on Slovenian tanks, the K1 gyroblock was retained from the original Rudi Čajavec SUV M-84(A). Also, how was the 2A42 stabilized? I notice it isn't mechanically linked to the gun, so it probably has its own stabilization.

Moderna could get really f*cking accurate with this.
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Last edited by HrcAk47 on Mon 5 Dec 2016 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Mon 5 Dec 2016 23:14

Steamfunk wrote:The Chieftain actually uses an LRF, whereas the AMX has a coincidence rangefinder.


Using AMX as an example is probably not the best idea, they are terrible, gimmicky tanks with stats left over from EE which doesn't represent them properly at all.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 5 Dec 2016 23:25

Another bit of evidence. Fotona (while today making only dentistry and medicine lasers thanks to :roll: :roll: :roll: ) even holds a picture of Moderna on it's website :D

http://www.fotona.com/en/products/2469/ ... l-systems/
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby HrcAk47 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:40

Okay, so I launched my "panslavism" translator skills, and I dug out this, as relevant for stabilization for T-72M2 Moderna.

Veža je stabilizovaná v odmere a kanón v námere elektro-hydraulickou stabilizáciou (tým je kanón stabilizovaný v odmere i námere). Stabilizátor v rozhodujúcej miere ovplyvňuje výsledné parametre SRP. Pôvodná konštrukcia stabilizátora stanovovala strednú amplitúdu kmitov stabilizovaného kanóna na menej ako 0,8 mrad v námere a 2 mrad v odmere, čo nedávalo žiaden predpoklad na splnenie TTP stanovených SRP. Optimálne bolo dosiahnuť zlepšenie na 0,3 mrad v námere a 0,5 mrad v odmere. Tieto parametre sa dosiahli zmenami v riadiacich obvodoch a redukciou vôle v kanóne a uloženiach veže. Pôvodný gyroskop nahradil nový model, ktorý umožòuje získať všetky potrebné veličiny pre SRP. Úspešnú realizáciu tejto zmeny umožnil digitálny regulátor. Regulátory sú integrované priamo do balistického poèítaèa. Výhodou riešenia je zachovanie pôvodných hydropohonov námeru a odmeru. Použitá koncepcia znižuje priestorovú náročnosť riešenia, zjednodušuje vzájomné prepojenie a dovoľuje pružnejšiu modifikáciu systému.


This seems to be describing the stabilization of original T-72M1 (0.8 mradx2 mrad), and the "optimum" which was "desired" to be achieved as 0.3x0.5mrad.

Both figures are quite off the ones seen on M-84, Vihor (0.15x0.25 mrad) and Leopard 2-2A4 (0.25x0.30 mrad), so I wouldn't give it the best stabilization. But the accuracy can go quite a way upward.

I see it with:

65% accuracy (70 is achievable, but should be discussed further)
55% stabilization

While the justification to nerf Moderna before was based on "war forbidding access to Western parts", now this injustice can be corrected with (realistic) influx of Yugoslav FCS tech.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Vestly » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:49

HrcAk47 wrote:Do you happen to have any data on the gun stabilization on Moderna? Fotona did offer such upgrade to my knowledge (GEB-84), but even on Slovenian tanks, the K1 gyroblock was retained from the original Rudi Čajavec SUV M-84(A). Also, how was the 2A42 stabilized? I notice it isn't mechanically linked to the gun, so it probably has its own stabilization.


from: http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/29016/SVK-T-72M2-Moderna
Slovak:
Spoiler : :
"Zlepšenie stabilizácie
Veža je stabilizovaná v odmere a kanón v námere elektro-hydraulickou stabilizáciou (tým je kanón stabilizovaný v odmere i námere). Stabilizátor v rozhodujúcej miere ovplyvňuje výsledné parametre SRP. Pôvodná konštrukcia stabilizátora stanovovala strednú amplitúdu kmitov stabilizovaného kanóna na menej ako 0,8 mrad v námere a 2 mrad v odmere, čo nedávalo žiaden predpoklad na splnenie TTP stanovených SRP. Optimálne bolo dosiahnuť zlepšenie na 0,3 mrad v námere a 0,5 mrad v odmere. Tieto parametre sa dosiahli zmenami v riadiacich obvodoch a redukciou vôle v kanóne a uloženiach veže. Pôvodný gyroskop nahradil nový model, ktorý umožòuje získať všetky potrebné veličiny pre SRP. Úspešnú realizáciu tejto zmeny umožnil digitálny regulátor. Regulátory sú integrované priamo do balistického počítača. Výhodou riešenia je zachovanie pôvodných hydropohonov námeru a odmeru. Použitá koncepcia znižuje priestorovú náročnosť riešenia, zjednodušuje vzájomné prepojenie a dovoľuje pružnejšiu modifikáciu systému."


Eng:
Turret is stabilized horizontally and gun vertically (So tank gun is stabilized both horizontally and vertically).Stabilizer crucially affect the final parameters of the FCS. The original design of the stabilizer determined the mean amplitude of oscillations of stabilized cannon to less than 0.8 mrad in elevation and 2 mrad horizontally (turret), which did not give any presumption to meet the TTP needed by FCS. Optimal figures were 0.3 mrad in elevation and 0.5 mrad horizontally. These parameters were achieved by changes in the control circuits, reducing the will in the cannon and some changes regarding turret ring. Original gyro was replaced by a new model , which allows to obtain all necessary parameters for the FCS. Digital controller/regulator allowed successful implementation of these changes. The controllers are integrated directly into the ballistic computer. Advantage of this solution was, that it allowed to preserve the original hydraulic drives for elevation and horizontal movement. Used conception reduces the complexity of spatial solutions, simplifies the interconnection and permits more flexible modification of the system.

Regarding the autocannon, computer system FCC stabilized both elevation of main gun and elevation of 2A42. Autocannon was controlled by commander. Main gun could by fired by both gunner and commander.

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby HrcAk47 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 01:10

Yes, it is how I thought it was, it doesn't have the 3-axis stabilization (cant correction), so it is definitely not top-tier in stabilization. But accuracy is a whole different thing. There we can see improvement. Massive improvement.

I think stats akin to Finnish Finmod Light for gun would be okay.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Tue 6 Dec 2016 01:30

HrcAk47 wrote:Yes, it is how I thought it was, it doesn't have the 3-axis stabilization (cant correction), so it is definitely not top-tier in stabilization. But accuracy is a whole different thing. There we can see improvement. Massive improvement.

I think stats akin to Finnish Finmod Light for gun would be okay.


The Finmod has 70% acc. Isn't the EFCS worse than the DNNS-2?
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby HrcAk47 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 01:34

Sgt._Pepper wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Yes, it is how I thought it was, it doesn't have the 3-axis stabilization (cant correction), so it is definitely not top-tier in stabilization. But accuracy is a whole different thing. There we can see improvement. Massive improvement.

I think stats akin to Finnish Finmod Light for gun would be okay.


The Finmod has 70% acc. Isn't the EFCS worse than the DNNS-2?


It is worse overall as a system (FCS+stabilization) rather than just FCS (stabilization on M-84s was godly), but this particular flavor of EFCS has the thermal FCS compared to M-84 and M-84A, plus all the "equivalent" subsystems (meteosensor, charge temperature sensor, etc). Trying to find out if system had fire gating with this stabilization configuration, as that was one of the main features of M-84.

Even at 65% it will be a pretty nifty little thing, if we go for parity.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Keinutnai » Tue 6 Dec 2016 22:50

Vestly wrote:1979 Leopard 2 which doesnt have a thermal sight is more accurate, than 1995 tank with thermals, etc. Ok.
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Considering Germany has so many high accuracy tanks, and practically all supertanks (160+ tanks) have 60-70% accuracy, what harm could there be, if the best tank that costs 160 gets an accuracy buff to say 65%?

55% is really too bad, especially considering that Leo2 without thermal sight has more. Thermal sight, and a tank designed 15 years later should count for something, amirite?
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