Eugen should take a look at tank acc

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Guggy » Sun 4 Dec 2016 00:56

I dont think anyone can (or is/will) argue from a realism perspective that the range and accuracy of the M60 ERA is reasonable.

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Killertomato » Sun 4 Dec 2016 01:01

Azaz3l wrote:
Killertomato wrote:EMES-12 was not just ballistic calculator, it was the first modern western FCS. It was only inferior to 1A33 in that it used the coincidence rangefinder for range input instead of an LRF.

List of features of it then pls.


Automatic pressure/wind/humidity/powder temp sensors, lead calculation, I think cant angle too?

Not really a surprise, it came straight out of the Leopard 2 program (indeed those sensors were all deleted when the US evaluated Leopard 2AV in 1976) and the only really big difference between it and EMES-15 was the LRF and the PZB 200.

It's really very normal for a new '70s fire control system, outside of not having an LRF. The SABCA TFCS on the Leopard 1AS/1C and the M21 on the M60A3, and 1A33, are all similar if you neglect the LRF as well.

Killertomato wrote:I thought Volna was better than 1A40-1?

They just had the same features: LRF + Ballistic Calculator taking in account atmospheric pressure/wind/other stuff I don't remember that you had to enter manually + lead calculation.[/quote]

I thought Volna had automatic pressure/wind/humidity/whatever entry?

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Azaz3l » Sun 4 Dec 2016 01:20

Killertomato wrote:
Automatic pressure/wind/humidity/powder temp sensors, lead calculation, I think cant angle too?

Not really a surprise, it came straight out of the Leopard 2 program (indeed those sensors were all deleted when the US evaluated Leopard 2AV in 1976) and the only really big difference between it and EMES-15 was the LRF and the PZB 200.

It's really very normal for a new '70s fire control system, outside of not having an LRF. The SABCA TFCS on the Leopard 1AS/1C and the M21 on the M60A3, and 1A33, are all similar if you neglect the LRF as well.

Interesting. Then yea, ballistic calculator features are somewhat comparable to 1A33's.

Killertomato wrote:I thought Volna had automatic pressure/wind/humidity/whatever entry?

Nah, in the manual I have on Volna FCS, it clearly says you have to enter manually the following values:
-Тв, air temperature
-Ts, shell temperature
-Δd, gun wear off
-H, atmospheric pressure
-W, wind speed

And there are no visible wind sensors on the T-55M/T-62M outside anyway.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Steamfunk » Sun 4 Dec 2016 03:26

Actually many MBTs had ballistic calculators before discrete components and/or ICs came along. One example is the M13 unit fitted to the M48 Patton -

The M48-A3 had, for 1968, a state-of-the-art fire control system. In 1968 computers were mechanical. . The ballistic computer was a collection of gears and cams--nothing was solid-state--which had a handle so that the gunner could select the type of ammunition that was to be fired. Each round had a different muzzle velocity, and therefore the computer had a different cam for each type. The computer would take the range data, merge it with the velocity data, and via a set of rotating shafts, supply this information to the gun's super-elevation mechanism, resulting in the gun being elevated above the gunners line of sight sufficiently for the round to overcome the downward pull of gravity on its way to the target. The gunner's sight however remained locked onto the target.


htt://www.quinton-avery.org/dcompany/M48A3.htm

The TPD-2-49 (used by the T-64 and T-72), is similar -

An analogue computer calculates the distance from the displacement of the lens group K, a distance input block adjusts the shot distance in the target telescope part. In addition to the measurement tolerance of 3-5% to 4000 m, the resolution of the optical measuring part poses a problem. The aim must be as clear as possible from the background with its outline. If this is not the case, the number and size of the measurement errors increases.


http://www.kotsch88.de/f_t-55am.htm

The last sentence explains why it was replaced by the TPD-K1 (or AN/VVG-2, in the US).

Nah, in the manual I have on Volna FCS, it clearly says you have to enter manually the following values:
-Тв, air temperature
-Ts, shell temperature
-Δd, gun wear off
-H, atmospheric pressure
-W, wind speed

And there are no visible wind sensors on the T-55M/T-62M outside anyway.


Description of the 1V517 unit, also from Stefan Kotsch -

The electronic ballistic computer 1V517, on the left in the picture, is an analog computer. It automatically calculates the values ​​for the lateral reserves and the angle of elevation as a function of the distance measured, the angle of the mantlet, the lateral wind, the target speed as a function of the flight time of the missile and takes into account the change in the distance during movement of the own armor according to the position of the turret. In order to take account of the most important deviations from the normal shooting conditions, the air pressure, the tube wear for the change of the initial speed, the deviation of the initial speed in accordance with the propellant charge, the propellant charge temperature and the air temperature can be set at the control panel of the ballistic computer. Using the potentiometers at the top of the control panel, important parameters can be adjusted or adjusted. These are the signal parameters of the wind meter, the cosine generator for the position and the directional speed, the tilting sensor, the sighting angle sensor, the parameters for the electrical system zero position in the vertical and horizontal and the pre-positioner. The distance can be entered manually in the case of emergency operation in the event of a failure of the distance meter and the functioning computer. The tilting sensor can be switched off with a switch if necessary.


The terminal for Volna is almost identical to the 1A33, although there are obvious differences, the main one being the 1G43 block which connects sensor for lead/cant (1B14) and the wind vane (1B11). I assume these components were omitted due to the lack of horizontal stabilisation on the main sight, although they are present on the Polish and Czech tanks. As far as the T-72 is concerned, it has the same computer with a simplified set of inputs, namely ammo type and sight elevation - 1A40-1 includes more modern components, which allow corrections for lead, cant and wind speed.

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 4 Dec 2016 04:01

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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Sun 4 Dec 2016 06:18

Vestly wrote:Yea, i know, but this isnt only about Moderna.

edit: more redfor tanks, especially the later ones, could get 60% acc


I have thread about the T-80U
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Sweedish_Gunner » Sun 4 Dec 2016 06:35

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:
Vestly wrote:Yea, i know, but this isnt only about Moderna.

edit: more redfor tanks, especially the later ones, could get 60% acc


I have thread about the T-80U


Sorry sbiuy drinkingd
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Sun 4 Dec 2016 09:17

Most tanks need a good looking at.

Redfor tanks with Modern FCS are still pitifully inaccurate, US tanks are all over the place, French tanks too.
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Bougnas » Sun 4 Dec 2016 11:18

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Most tanks need a good looking at.

Redfor tanks with Modern FCS are still pitifully inaccurate, US tanks are all over the place, French tanks too.



What do you mean by "French tanks" ?
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Re: Eugen should take a look at tank acc

Postby Razzmann » Sun 4 Dec 2016 11:29

Bougnas wrote:
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Most tanks need a good looking at.

Redfor tanks with Modern FCS are still pitifully inaccurate, US tanks are all over the place, French tanks too.



What do you mean by "French tanks" ?

Tanks that are available to France :lol:

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