About the 2 New Mig-29

Terracos
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu 26 May 2016 09:50
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby Terracos » Tue 6 Dec 2016 19:43

CommanderDef wrote:
Demonicjapsel wrote:Because in aviation, weight rating exist for a reason. anything above that and integrity and proper functioning cannot be guaranteed as such, seperation issues, cracks in wings can all occur. Hence nobody in their right mind would load ordinance that exceeds the weight onto a pylon unless they are desperate.

It's a soviet plane, it would be able to carry twice the load on that pylon if really necessary. Soviets always worked like that, making something solid with lot of reserve. Maybe it was made because of lack of computers, maybe lack of confidence in actual quality of the material, but this is one of the characteristics of soviet high-tech industry. Apart of planes, it can also be seen for example on projects of nuclear powerplants. On the other hand, US planes that are designed 'exactly' - performance is well known, but the reserves are smaller.


I wont be that sure, an overweight of 12.5kg becomes 62.5kg overweight in a 5G situation. And this is under the assumption that the force is constant, but due to turbulence and maneuvers the force changes rapidly and due to the location of the pylon, way higher accelerations and forces can occur onto the pylon and therefore the wing. So even if it was build with reserve, forces under rapidly changing accelerations can change immensely. Also it alters the resonance frequency of the wing and this could cause troubles. Further it might be possible to carry it once in a while but attack planes are planned to last long and not only for one suicide attack. Therefore no regular air force will ever overload their assets.

User avatar
Xeno426
Carbon 13
Posts: 11965
Joined: Tue 13 Mar 2012 21:27
Location: Acheron, Hadley's Hope
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 19:57

HrcAk47 wrote:What do you mean by unrealistic?

Surely you're aware that the BL-755 is 262 kg IRL, right? I fail to see the wings falling off for 12kg overload.

Derp, mixing up pounds and kilos. :oops:

HrcAk47 wrote:Also, the Mk.3 version Yugo uses has 250 mm bomb locks, so it's MiG-21-compatible.

Yeah, I know about the mark system for the BL-755.

Terracos wrote:I wont be that sure, an overweight of 12.5kg becomes 62.5kg overweight in a 5G situation. And this is under the assumption that the force is constant, but due to turbulence and maneuvers the force changes rapidly and due to the location of the pylon, way higher accelerations and forces can occur onto the pylon and therefore the wing. So even if it was build with reserve, forces under rapidly changing accelerations can change immensely. Also it alters the resonance frequency of the wing and this could cause troubles. Further it might be possible to carry it once in a while but attack planes are planned to last long and not only for one suicide attack. Therefore no regular air force will ever overload their assets.

The MIG-21 in particular can have some nasty consequences for pulling lots of G's with even a regular load. Like ripping ordinance off.
Image
CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 13128
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby another505 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 20:15

Mike wrote:
CommanderDef wrote:it can also be seen for example on projects of nuclear powerplants


Oh the irony.

well... tbf, chernobyl was human error
Image
Of Salt

Terracos
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu 26 May 2016 09:50
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby Terracos » Tue 6 Dec 2016 20:23

another505 wrote:well... tbf, chernobyl was human error


Putting to much weight on a plane is also human error.

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby HrcAk47 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 20:29

Well, at the moment, L-15M (MiG-21MF) turns like a bus, with 500 radius. EGerman is also 500, while Polish one is 350. So there won't be many sustained G's, I think :lol:

It behaves extremely satisfying ingame (in my experience), it is an universal panic button on a budget, also comes home more often than not.

Other alternatives (2xFAB-500+2xFAB-250/ 2xFAB-500+2xPLAB/ZAB-250 (this one seems very Romanian)) didn't feel so appealing during the projecting phase.

Another one was considered (2xFAB-500+2xFAB-275M-91 thermobaric), but that one is no good, given the current effect of thermobarics (low HE and napalm). And the overload is 50 kg in that case. Slimmer pilot maybe?

If Xeno's changes get considered, then it could become really nice - but I want my thermobaric truck (x8) NJ-22B Orao 2 first :twisted:
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

User avatar
Artruis
Sergeant
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat 2 Jul 2016 00:38
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby Artruis » Tue 6 Dec 2016 20:39

CommanderDef wrote:
Demonicjapsel wrote:Because in aviation, weight rating exist for a reason. anything above that and integrity and proper functioning cannot be guaranteed as such, seperation issues, cracks in wings can all occur. Hence nobody in their right mind would load ordinance that exceeds the weight onto a pylon unless they are desperate.

It's a soviet plane, it would be able to carry twice the load on that pylon if really necessary. Soviets always worked like that, making something solid with lot of reserve. Maybe it was made because of lack of computers, maybe lack of confidence in actual quality of the material, but this is one of the characteristics of soviet high-tech industry. Apart of planes, it can also be seen for example on projects of nuclear powerplants. On the other hand, US planes that are designed 'exactly' - performance is well known, but the reserves are smaller.

Nobody design their fighter with a safety factor of 2 lol, for a typical fighter the safety factor is around 1.1-1.2. @ 9-10G
Q: "what's the best worst choice you made in your life?"
me: "engineering"

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1465
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 6 Dec 2016 23:06

Terracos wrote:study fluiddynamics (what I really cannot suggest :roll: )

It's not that bad (He says, shitposting on the forums rather then doing his fluid dynamics work for Thursday). However, Xeno, I cannot suggest that you study it because I suspect that the fact you can quote everything a company has ever done back to them will make you slightly more employable than me!

HrcAk47 wrote:Slimmer pilot maybe?

Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Weight on the centreline is fine, weight on the pylons is problematic. However, since I personally never expect a low ECM bomber to even make it so far as to start turning, never mind entering a turn with the ordinance aboard, I think that a couple of kg per pylon is probably fine. If it really bothers anyone, pretend the armourers didn't load 12 of the bomblets per bomb. That's hardly going to make a difference to effect on target.

Xeno426 wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Also, a 9.13 can be introduced to them as well (they made 3 IIRC) with potentially better missiles.

The 9.13 only introduced the internal jamer and added some more fuel. I can't recall without my books if they made the two inboard pylons wet, but there were no other changes to armament options; that didn't come until the 9.13S (and 9.12S).
As for the number, that's pretty accurate. They ordered a dozen in kits that were to be assembled in North Korea, but Russia cancelled the order after only three were delivered due to the DPRK unable to pay in hard currency. My guess is that in the financial state of Russia at the time, they couldn't afford to be paid in grain, so in our alternate timeline it's completely likely they would have completed the order.
However, according to Yefim Gordon the aircraft were delivered without the jammer. Frostpooky has stated they've picked up the telltale signal of the Gardeniya jammer from their aircraft, so I don't know if Gordon was wrong in this or if the DPRK managed to secure some of those jammer systems at a later date.

Given that the Soviet Union is providing North Korea with some nice things in this timeline I'm sure they could have dug up some widely-used jammers. Common or Gardeniya, indeed.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby HrcAk47 » Wed 7 Dec 2016 00:35

FrangibleCover wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Slimmer pilot maybe?

Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Weight on the centreline is fine, weight on the pylons is problematic. However, since I personally never expect a low ECM bomber to even make it so far as to start turning, never mind entering a turn with the ordinance aboard, I think that a couple of kg per pylon is probably fine. If it really bothers anyone, pretend the armourers didn't load 12 of the bomblets per bomb. That's hardly going to make a difference to effect on target.


'Twas a joke ;)
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

GARGEAN
Brigadier
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed 9 Apr 2014 14:19
Contact:

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby GARGEAN » Wed 7 Dec 2016 01:01

Demonicjapsel wrote:and can i have this in writing, for the aviation part atleast? because to me, it means opening up an entire new can of worms,

You want me to let you weights of ordnance that can be carried by pylons of 3 weight category(up to 500kg)?

User avatar
Demonicjapsel
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat 26 Jul 2014 20:58
Location: Triggering HRCK and his warcrime denying Yugoboos

Re: About the 2 New Mig-29

Postby Demonicjapsel » Wed 7 Dec 2016 01:57

GARGEAN wrote:
Demonicjapsel wrote:and can i have this in writing, for the aviation part atleast? because to me, it means opening up an entire new can of worms,

You want me to let you weights of ordnance that can be carried by pylons of 3 weight category(up to 500kg)?


no, i want the official safety margins for the pylons in writing. maximum of allowed weight in excess of the weight the pylon is rated for.

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests