Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

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hansbroger
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Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:06

Changes (WiP)

High end tank may change from T-80UM to T-80UD that actually saw service.

Global USSR arty RoF buff to 6 r/m with no change in existing variants (no matter how much I want to see that 2S3M1...)

OP
Spoiler : :
The USSR is known for a no frills, mission oriented competency based design philosophy creating highly effective though not extravagant or flexible kit. This kit may not be the outright best in its class but it is generally sufficient for any of the tasks set for it and in the combined arms team creates an exceptionally flexible and lethal force. Unfortunately most of that stuff has been dumbed down or left behind by things like 105mm gun and Bluefor FCS power creep, leaving the USSR paradoxically reliant upon unicorns, paper protos and meme units. It's time to boost the basic bread and butter units and get rid of the worst offenders (most are in the air and tank tabs and dealt with in detail inside the linked threads.)

I am assuming that my national compatriots over in the USA thread will undertake a similar effort by providing parallel developments in the USA and save me from the labor that is creating a comprehensive superpower revitalization thread. So far I am actually playing catchup to the work done in the US Changes: The Compiled and Proposed thread linked below...... (Please read before complaining about "But Muh ____ doesn't get what ____ gets.....)
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=55422

Above all this thread concentrates on creating meaningful change through PATCHABLE stat changes and unit designation alterations. Above all we are mostly taking 1960s stuff and making it late 70s or 80s stuff. With the Ultimate goal of making a USSR deck that looks like a USSR deck rather than the current styles on exhibition in the 1991-1995 ROSOBORONEXPORT catelogue"

For "Flavour" Soviet artillery units will retain their inexplicable and ideologically motivated higher on average dispersion but will be distinguished from their opponents by well deserved much higher rates of fire considering their use of semi-fixed ammunition and highly mechanized loading cycles.

TL:DR
Make a recon BMP-1P/2 or BRM-1 becomes cheaper very good optics recon fighting vehicle
Add PRP-3/4/4M as exceptional optics recon vehicle. PRP-4M is super easy as it is dummied to look like BMP-2.
T-64B gets 2275m range (this is the only unit specific stat change I swear).
Gorno now shock, BMD, BTR-D and BTR-60/70/80. Possibly changed to RR light infantry w/ SPG-9D/SPG-9MD because Metys-M cannot be modeled faithfully without people throwing a fit even in the era of SPIKE.
BRDM-2 Strela-1M -> MT-LB Strela-10M2/M3/M4 with 9M37M/9M333 both are pre-1989
2S1 RoF from 5 to 6-7 r/m. Becomes USSR CatC SPH (finally the regimental SPH will get used) Same price, its still 6 HE
2S3M RoF from 5 to 6 r/m. Price buffed to 60-65 points. Becomes reasonably useful if still imprecise CatC/B class SPH
2S3 -> 2S3M1 (IOD 1987 fleetwide standard 1993) 6 r/m, 4550m dispersion, 15s aimtime as precedented with Sholef
2S7 Pion -> 2S5 152mm SPG clone of Finnish 2S5 (2S7 is a Army/Front level asset, it makes little sense to have two)
MT-LB Shturm-S becomes MT-LB Shturm still with Kokon
BRDM-2 Malyutka-P becomes MT-LB Shturm-S with Kokon-M or Ataka (both ITF and useable by the system).
9M112M, 9M112M2 added, Kobra system accuracy buffed to a minimum of 50% with later variants at 55%+.
Konkurs accuracy buffed to within -5% of corresponding TOW variant.
T-80B receives 9M112M
T-64BM receives 9M112M/M2
T-80BV receives 9M124/128
T-55/T-62 changes as proposed in:
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=59194

Slightly more intensive changes:
Tank prop 1: Change tank tab to focus on T-62/T-64/T-80 to the detriment of full expression of T-55/T-72, leaving that to NSWP

Tank prop 2: Change tank tab to cut out CatC redundancies and impossible to balance CatC relics that Eugen refuses to deal with with the same reverence as say Leo 1. (expect the same to go on with the atrocious duplication in the M60 line in US)

Please be mindful this is a working topic, I'm polishing grad apps this week so I'll try to fully flesh it out if I have moments over the next few days


LOG
Logistics are sufficient

INF
Infantry are by and large sufficient.
Spoiler : :
Konkurs/Faktoriya is going to track within -5% of TOW
Konkurs 50%-55% accuracy as compared to 60% ITOW
Konkurs-M 60%-65% as compared to 70% TOW-2

Gornos: Shock, Ground transport in the form of BTR-D line and some BMD taking Gorno's for cheap negatively impacts ability to take Veh Deh Veh and Spetz for cheap. BTR-60/70/80 as well, No BTR-82A/90, take your doom propheting elsewhere. Why shock? because the only mountain troops in the post WW2 Soviet Orbat are the 7th Guards Airborne Division, in other words they are Veh Deh Veh!

Helo lock them if you want because that makes them KGB border guard rapid response teams and we now have a precedent for 10 man elite teams with ATGMs and ATGM Helo transports... Bring it! :twisted:
Image Yes this is what IRL Gorno's look like.

As an aside, possibly just give Gorno 75 and 90 the SPG-9D with two different tiers of ammo (IE PG-9VS & PG-9VNT) and 1400m range seeing as it is impossible to model Metys-M as anything approaching its IRL capabilities without someone throwing a fit (despite the existence of SPIKE). Gorno's will become a shock light infantry squad with a 1400m RR, decently priced, decently capable, coming in reasonable transports, in other words, sufficient.

Before doom propheting please acquaint yourself with the literature and the very real and justifiable concept of Elite Gorno's in Mi-24.

BTRs and Gorno are a thing:
Image
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=52238&hilit=Gorno+90
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58605&hilit=gorno+are+vdv


RECON
Spoiler : :
Recon BMP-1P/BMP-2 nothing special, just a 30-40 point very good optics recon vehicle, can take the role of the PRP-3/PRP-4M in spirit if not actual capabilities, PRP-4M "Deyteriy" in particular has a fake gun barrel and is mocked up to look like a BMP-2, all vehicles are pre 1988. Just use the DDR BMP-2 SP1 model.

In fact make the PRP-4M the 50 point tracked "Exceptional" optics recon vehicle, it has (PRP-3/PRP-4/4M):
1G25-1/1G13/KP-4 navigation system
1D6/D6M1/1D11M-1 LRF
1RL-126 "Small Fred"/1RL-133-1 "Tall Mike" Surveilance radar
Night vision and launchers for illumination flares.
None/1PN59/1PN71 Thermals
1D13 portable laser reconnaissance device

Knock down the BRM-K1 to serve as a "Very Good" optics combat recon vehicle at 35-40 points, since it has been replaced by the unarmed PRP-3/4/4M, Give Malyutka-P.

SUPPORT
Spoiler : :
AA is by and large sufficient.
BRDM-2 Strela-1M -> MT-LB Strela-10M2/3/4 (choose your designation.. they're all pre 1989) with 9M333. The BRDM-2 Strela-1M is an upgrade of a 1960s relic that belongs in NSWP, not the 1980-1995 USSR, the USSR already has a CatC IR system in the form of the 1980 MT-LB Strela-10M.

2S1 RoF to 6 or even 7 r/m. (6 r/m is an avg sustained rate for the crewed D-30) System with highly automated loading sequence becomes flavorful SPG that compensates for lower HE with volume of fire. Takes over the role of the 2S3 and is something you'd actually use. Dispersion and range remain the same. Again considering the obscenely high rates given to some known sloths like M109, 7 r/m on a 6 HE howitzer is not unreasonable. I assume FV 433 and the M108/AMX 105 will adjust accordingly.


2S3M is currently overpriced junk, drop to 60 points and increase RoF to 6 r/m to differentiate itself from the 4-5 r/m of its hand loaded and hand primed peers (considering the M109 gets 4!?). Loading speed and sustained fire rate is undeniably superior to that of M109 by a huge margin. Loading sequence is almost entirely automated and it even has a cool carousel magazine which seems to get you extra RoF if you're a Merkava... ;)
3:00 onwards


Replace 2S3 with 2S3M1 (1987 and fleet standard by 1993) Equipped with a command data acquisition and display equipment, and with a new SP-538 sight. OF-38 Krasnopol laser-guided rocket-assisted projectiles were added to standard ammunition. To restate.. By 1993 ALL 2S3 in the inventory were up to this standard. 15s aimtime, 4550m dispersion, same range as 2S3M. But it's CatA you might say... Well currently the USSR has THREE pre-1980 SPH systems so we can stand to make one a CatB/A system as there are still two left to hold down the fort.

Replace 2S7 with 2S5 stat clone of Finnish 2S5. 2S7 is a high level Army/Front asset, it makes little sense to have two to the exclusion of the much more numerous 2S5. 2S5 takes over as CatC/early CatB long range gun supporting the later 2S7M


TANK
Spoiler : :
NSWP expresses the capabilities of the T-72 line as well as or possibly better than the USSR, that's why I'm inclined to go crazy and potentially express the T-62/T-64/T-80 lines over the T-55/T-72 which are prolific in NSWP. As such we would leave the bare minimum T-55, some token modernized T-62 and go hard on the T-64/T-80, leaving a small core of T-72. USSR tank force starts looking more like the first echelon that you would face in Fulda.

I even have some thoughts of supplanting the T-72BU with an ITF Ukrainian developments of T-64/80UD? considering that the USSR still has the Kharkovites in this timeframe and leaving the T-72BU for the DDR in keeping with this T-64/80 for USSR T-72 for the NSWP theme.

See thread for detailed model and statistical breakdown
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58829&hilit=T72+error&start=70#p998312
Also we are making changes to Kobra, ie acknowledging the fact that like systems such as TOW, there was actually development and sequential improvement of the missile beyond its IOD in the early 1970s..... This in itself fixes MANY of the issues in the T-80/T-64 lines. We've been over this a few times and it's in the current T-80 thread, but for reference.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=51299&hilit=kobra+should+I+say+kobras

VEHICLE
Spoiler : :
Of the USSR's tank destroyers, 3 are CatC and one a 1960s relic, as such I am phasing out the BRDM-2 Malyutka-P in favor for a MT-LB Shturm with Kokon-M or Ataka, CatB/A respectively. Malyutka is sufficiently proliferated through the BMP/BMD lines, it doesn't need to be in the tank destroyer section that the spec decks rely upon.
MT-LB Shturm-S becomes MT-LB Shturm
BRDM-2 Malyutka-P becomes MT-LB Shturm-S with Kokon-M or Ataka.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58344&hilit=mt+lb+shturm+sm#p977217

HELO
Sufficient

AIR
See Xeno's changes.
Last edited by hansbroger on Mon 9 Jan 2017 20:57, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby Killertomato » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:17

I too want Shock Gornos.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby remilia019 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:36

We need a thread for making Super Powers "Super" again . . .

Along with a remove NORAD when USA is made a legit Super Power in Wargame. . .

On the side note, I believe the first step to make USSR Sufficient in the Bread and butter is to make their tanks not artificially gimp'd in numbers against NATO tanks of the same price. I'm disappointed that only T-80A was looked at when so many T-72 have the issue.

For Super Tanks I'd like to see the T-80 Snow Leopard with its Shtora-1.
Last edited by remilia019 on Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby Azaz3l » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:41

hansbroger wrote:T-80B receives 9M112M
T-64B receives 9M112M/M2

Errr, should be the other way around as T-80B is a later tank.
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:43

Azaz3l wrote:
hansbroger wrote:T-80B receives 9M112M
T-64B receives 9M112M/M2

Errr, should be the other way around as T-80B is a later tank.


woops should be BM
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:50

remilia019 wrote:We need a thread for making Super Powers "Super" again . . .

Along with a remove NORAD when USA is made a legit Super Power in Wargame. . .

On the side note, I believe the first step to make USSR Sufficient in the Bread and butter is to make their tanks not artificially gimp'd in numbers against NATO tanks of the same price. I'm disappointed that only T-80A was looked at when so many T-72 have the issue.

For Super Tanks I'd like to see the T-80 Snow Leopard with its Shtora-1.


Well T-80A is more of an alteration symbolic of greater change. For example it is being made into the T-80U obr 84 which is an IOC T-80U with K1 if I am not mistaken (also designated T-80A obr 84), as it is an actual production variant you get two cards instead of the silly 1 card T-80A. This is only part of a greater change which among other things replaces junk like the T-62 Obr 72 with things like the T-64B1 etc. Where we can make that difference felt is in the 100-150 point heavy range especially with the inclusion of the the T-80U '84 and the T-80UD among others which will add another 3-4 cards respectively while removing one of the Superheavies. In this way the USSR expresses itself through numerous 1984-89 heavies while leaving the post 1990 superheavy game mostly to NATO, only contributing the T-80UM and exporting the T-72BU to NSWP. (Although I do envision the possibility of something like the T-64BM2/Bulat as a counterpart to the T-80UM).

I should add that the comprehensive combined arms package, including elements such as the Shturm-SM with Kokon-M/Ataka make the USSR less reliant on a superheavy and thus for flavor reasons they can be deprived of one.
Last edited by hansbroger on Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby remilia019 » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:53

hansbroger wrote:
remilia019 wrote:We need a thread for making Super Powers "Super" again . . .

Along with a remove NORAD when USA is made a legit Super Power in Wargame. . .

On the side note, I believe the first step to make USSR Sufficient in the Bread and butter is to make their tanks not artificially gimp'd in numbers against NATO tanks of the same price. I'm disappointed that only T-80A was looked at when so many T-72 have the issue.

For Super Tanks I'd like to see the T-80 Snow Leopard with its Shtora-1.


Well T-80A is more of an alteration symbolic of greater change. For example it is being made into the T-80U obr 84 which is an IOC T-80U with K1 if I am not mistaken (also designated T-80A obr 84), as it is an actual production variant you get two cards instead of the silly 1 card T-80A. This is only part of a greater change which among other things replaces junk like the T-62 Obr 72 with things like the T-64B1 etc. Where we can make that difference felt is in the 100-150 point heavy range especially with the inclusion of the the T-80U '84 and the T-80UD among others which will add another 3-4 cards respectively while removing one of the Superheavies. In this way the USSR expresses itself through numerous 1984-89 heavies while leaving the post 1990 superheavy game mostly to NATO, only contributing the T-80UM and exporting the T-72BU to NSWP. (Although I do envision the possibility of something like the T-64BM2/Bulat as a counterpart to the T-80UM).


I don't think we connect :lol:

By numbers and the T-80A thing, I only meant the last patch, where tank availability inconsistency is still not looked at, only T-80A got its availability fixed, T-72B has fewer availability per card in comparison to T-64BM, T-80A, Leopard 2A1, and other 100pts tanks when its only 90pts.
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:54

ah gotcha
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby Azaz3l » Tue 6 Dec 2016 00:59

I'd consider replacing T-80UM with late T-80UD as well, just call it T-80UD obr. 91 or something. Basically it's a T-80UD with welded turret and improved hull armor, wouldn't really require a new model.
T-80UDs were planned with welded turret at late batches but weren't produced under SU because it simply collapsed, they however were finally assembled under Ukraine but much later.

In game it would give something like:
-Same gun/missile stats as T-80UM currently
-Frontal armor +1
-Speed reduced to 70 km/h due to 1000hp 6TD-1 diesel
-Autonomy increased
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Re: Make the USSR "Sufficient" Again!

Postby hansbroger » Tue 6 Dec 2016 01:03

Azaz3l wrote:I'd consider replacing T-80UM with late T-80UD as well, just call it T-80UD obr. 91 or something. Basically it's a T-80UD with welded turret and improved hull armor, wouldn't really require a new model.
T-80UDs were planned with welded turret at late batches but weren't produced under SU because it simply collapsed, they however were finally assembled under Ukraine but much later.

In game it would give something like:
-Same gun/missile stats as T-80UM currently
-Frontal armor +1
-Speed reduced to 70 km/h due to 1000hp 6TD-1 diesel
-Autonomy increased


Let's keep the T-80UM and use the T-80UD obr. 91 to replace the T-72BU. We create more flavor in RedFor by making Soviet the T-64/T-80 centric force and by punting off T-72BU to NSWP we make them the T-55/T-72 centric faction.

Are you thinking of adding a T-80UD and a T-80UD obr. 91?
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