Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

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RoadkillRodger
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby RoadkillRodger » Sat 10 Dec 2016 07:50

+1 to a buff to 4550 dispersion w/~20 s aimtime. This thing has the potential to be the only useful medium artillery piece in game, but at its current price and supply cost it's not justifiable unless you can afford to take 3 or 4- at which point you might as well just buy a bomber and some SEAD.

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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby hansbroger » Sat 10 Dec 2016 09:01

codextero wrote:I'd argue that GPS is one of the things that improve firing speed the most, since it makes surveying firing sites much much faster. INS in vehicles going off road through rocks and bumps loses zero extremely fast. Without GPS, determining your altitude requires very good maps, or pre-surveyed positions.

That said, I very much agree with 20 seconds for mid tier 155/152 artillery, and save 30s for the 203s and WW2 era relics. 15s for the 80-100 pointers also sound reasonable.


Haha well when it came to cartography they're certainly weren't slouches :lol:

INS isn't nearly as optimal as GPS but 20s for most of the stuff like M109/FV433/2S1/2S3 would be grand if only for timely smoke
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby codextero » Sat 10 Dec 2016 09:31

hansbroger wrote:
codextero wrote:I'd argue that GPS is one of the things that improve firing speed the most, since it makes surveying firing sites much much faster. INS in vehicles going off road through rocks and bumps loses zero extremely fast. Without GPS, determining your altitude requires very good maps, or pre-surveyed positions.

That said, I very much agree with 20 seconds for mid tier 155/152 artillery, and save 30s for the 203s and WW2 era relics. 15s for the 80-100 pointers also sound reasonable.


Haha well when it came to cartography they're certainly weren't slouches :lol:

INS isn't nearly as optimal as GPS but 20s for most of the stuff like M109/FV433/2S1/2S3 would be grand if only for timely smoke


Image

US army assessment of how CEP increases with distance traveled on INS. Most of this is due to Z-axis drift. The linear fit shows that loss of altitude precision is directly tied to the vehicle movement, and that it is unavoidable. That might be a plausible justification for the low accuracy of older vehicles. When firing from a stop, they don't have as good information relative to the target.

Back on topic. IMO the WG:EE system of corrected fire is still the best overall. The unique capability of modern artillery can give us different firing patterns.

For example

Old arty - 50pt : First shot has very large dispersion, gradually zeroing in over the barrage. Shoots a long salvo of 8-10 rounds with the last 3-4 rounds being almost as accurate as the modern artillery. Cheap enough to buy a lot of them. Longer aiming time (20s)

Medium arty 80-100pt : First shot has medium dispersion, accurate after the first 2-3 shots. Shorter burst of 6-8 or so rounds for 4 salvos on target. First salvo in 10 seconds. This is great if you want to suppress targets in an area, but it's usually not accurate enough to kill.

Modern arty 120pt+ : First salvo is accurate, accuracy does not increase over time, shoots a short burst of 3-5 rounds. Perfect for shoot and scoot, not price effective if you want to soften up a town right before an assault, but it gives less warning that an attack is coming.

Now you have different artillery for different jobs, instead of one arty that does everything better. If you want to soften up a treeline or town before an attack, grab some 2S1 or M109 and set up prolonged barrages into the area. If you want general area suppression fast, grab medium arty, because they can get rounds downrange fast, but not as accurate. If you want counter-battery, sniping soft targets, and resistance to counter-arty, modern arty does that at the cost of poor price efficiency at the other jobs.

I'm in favor of buffing artillery ROF beyond their real life abilities in order to make low and medium end arty more compelling. 10s between shots is realistic, but it's not effective. 7.5 is about the longest delay that artillery can have and be able to keep a target suppressed rather than just driving away. If possible, make it so that the ranging rounds are fired at a slower rate, where 10s is ok, but when the rounds are dialed in, have them artificially shoot faster.

Alternatively make cheap arty cheaper so you can actually get saturation fire from tubes.

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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby hansbroger » Sat 10 Dec 2016 09:49

codextero wrote:[

Image

US army assessment of how CEP increases with distance traveled on INS. Most of this is due to Z-axis drift. The linear fit shows that loss of altitude precision is directly tied to the vehicle movement, and that it is unavoidable. That might be a plausible justification for the low accuracy of older vehicles. When firing from a stop, they don't have as good information relative to the target.

Back on topic. IMO the WG:EE system of corrected fire is still the best overall. The unique capability of modern artillery can give us different firing patterns.

For example

Old arty - 50pt : First shot has very large dispersion, gradually zeroing in over the barrage. Shoots a long salvo of 8-10 rounds with the last 3-4 rounds being almost as accurate as the modern artillery. Cheap enough to buy a lot of them. Longer aiming time (20s)

Medium arty 80-100pt : First shot has medium dispersion, accurate after the first 2-3 shots. Shorter burst of 6-8 or so rounds for 4 salvos on target. First salvo in 10 seconds. This is great if you want to suppress targets in an area, but it's usually not accurate enough to kill.

Modern arty 120pt+ : First salvo is accurate, accuracy does not increase over time, shoots a short burst of 3-5 rounds. Perfect for shoot and scoot, not price effective if you want to soften up a town right before an assault, but it gives less warning that an attack is coming.

Now you have different artillery for different jobs, instead of one arty that does everything better. If you want to soften up a treeline or town before an attack, grab some 2S1 or M109 and set up prolonged barrages into the area. If you want general area suppression fast, grab medium arty, because they can get rounds downrange fast, but not as accurate. If you want counter-battery, sniping soft targets, and resistance to counter-arty, modern arty does that at the cost of poor price efficiency at the other jobs.

I'm in favor of buffing artillery ROF beyond their real life abilities in order to make low and medium end arty more compelling. 10s between shots is realistic, but it's not effective. 7.5 is about the longest delay that artillery can have and be able to keep a target suppressed rather than just driving away. If possible, make it so that the ranging rounds are fired at a slower rate, where 10s is ok, but when the rounds are dialed in, have them artificially shoot faster.

Alternatively make cheap arty cheaper so you can actually get saturation fire from tubes.


I really miss the EE model, it gave an incentive to counterbattery and do the recon fight because the fires were going to get accurate soon no matter the firing piece

I like that division of labor and it really gives each price point a raison d'être
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terror51247
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby terror51247 » Sat 10 Dec 2016 12:19

No artillery should aim 10 seconds.They cant do that IRL and its terrible for gameplay.It makes attacking harder than it should be.On larger games it becomes pure cancer because you can have a whole team focusing its whole firepower on a single player's attacking force.Its just as cancerous as air spam.The best artillery should aim in 30 second at best with the current mechanics.It would be better if we had setu up and pack times though.That way they could aim fast but them one would risk getting counter battery in return for firing for too long.
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby Bougnas » Sat 10 Dec 2016 12:39

terror51247 wrote:No artillery should aim 10 seconds.They cant do that IRL and its terrible for gameplay.It makes attacking harder than it should be.On larger games it becomes pure cancer because you can have a whole team focusing its whole firepower on a single player's attacking force.Its just as cancerous as air spam.The best artillery should aim in 30 second at best with the current mechanics.It would be better if we had setu up and pack times though.That way they could aim fast but them one would risk getting counter battery in return for firing for too long.


No 10s spg can stop an attack. If the attack units sit long enough to be hit when you have 5s of warning then someone is doing it wrong.

It's true for MLRS however.

Also "larger games"
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby terror51247 » Sat 10 Dec 2016 13:16

Bougnas wrote:
terror51247 wrote:No artillery should aim 10 seconds.They cant do that IRL and its terrible for gameplay.It makes attacking harder than it should be.On larger games it becomes pure cancer because you can have a whole team focusing its whole firepower on a single player's attacking force.Its just as cancerous as air spam.The best artillery should aim in 30 second at best with the current mechanics.It would be better if we had setu up and pack times though.That way they could aim fast but them one would risk getting counter battery in return for firing for too long.


No 10s spg can stop an attack. If the attack units sit long enough to be hit when you have 5s of warning then someone is doing it wrong.

It's true for MLRS however.

Also "larger games"

Larger games is 3v3/4v4/10v10
Obviously 10v10 is where the problem is the worst.
10 sec aim time artillery wont stop an attack by itself but it will make it much harder by sniping your stuff if it stops for more than 15 seconds.If your stuff is infantry it can hit your stuff even on the move.Believe it or not you cannot keep moving forever.You cannot look at your unit and the enemy's rear at all time forever.Sometime it will hit your AA.If it happens you lost.
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby hansbroger » Sat 10 Dec 2016 19:38

Non rocket artillery is good for disrupting single axis attacks contrasting a small number of high capability units and that's totally cool, part of the dance is finding the least capable, yet still sufficient AFV you can get away with using in order to have the numbers to work on multiple axes and defeat things like 10s arty. Not to mention his burst size suggestion makes the 10s arty useless for the role of attack stopping barrage fires....

Rocket artillery or at least the high caliber stuff needs a longer aimtime, I'm not super convinced that the smaller caliber stuff like LARS or BM-21 necessarily needs to be treated the same way though as they don't really kill.

Artillery is only so useful in the defense right now because it's not flexible enough to be used to support the offensive.
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby terror51247 » Sat 10 Dec 2016 19:58

hansbroger wrote:Non rocket artillery is good for disrupting single axis attacks contrasting a small number of high capability units and that's totally cool, part of the dance is finding the least capable, yet still sufficient AFV you can get away with using in order to have the numbers to work on multiple axes and defeat things like 10s arty. Not to mention his burst size suggestion makes the 10s arty useless for the role of attack stopping barrage fires....

Rocket artillery or at least the high caliber stuff needs a longer aimtime, I'm not super convinced that the smaller caliber stuff like LARS or BM-21 necessarily needs to be treated the same way though as they don't really kill.

Artillery is only so useful in the defense right now because it's not flexible enough to be used to support the offensive.

Artillery is useful for offense.Those cheap artillery have ammunition that costs so little that you can flatten one of those villages with them before moving in with infantry.Thats useful.
10 sec sniper arty can hit your AA units.The thing is that AA that works decently against choppers needs to have at least 2800m anti helo range and isnt cheap at all.Anti airplane ones usually arent cheap as well if you want the good stuff.All of them exist in small amount.If you lose your AA the attack will fail.Then there are mortars who are cheap enough to exist in large numbers and can stun and panick your stuff constantly and outright kill the light stuff.
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Re: Correct Finnish 2S5 Accuracy

Postby Steamfunk » Sat 10 Dec 2016 20:24

Never really been a fan of mortars, to be honest. But I understand your point about aim times - this is the sort of detail that could make or break gameplay. A small buff would be sufficient.

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