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What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:13
by Mako
RRs are an interesting weapon and appear on both vehicles and infantry units.

They currently are characterized by:

Bad ROF

Bad Accuracy

Bad Damage

Goodish Range (Bad range for vehicle weapons)


Their strongest aspect is range on durable 5-15 man infantry units, ATGMs far outrange them but are almost exclusively 2 men and therefore vulnerable. (metys and dragon and Maglan are being ignored here)

Unfortunately, they still are rarely taken in either vehicle or infantry forms. yugo thing exempt


Their AP is unrealistically low considering IRL it was usually as good or better than infantry AT weapons, even by ATGM scaling they are currently under modeled and by infantry AP scaling they're painfully under modeled.

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So what should be done to make these units less terrible?

They're terrible compared to ATGMs and tank guns, and compared to infantry launchers they've got some range and then terrible everything else.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:20
by Bougnas
That's probably the third of fourth time we are asking for RR changes :lol: .

So far, there has been quite a large consensus (mostly in previous threads and the RD fine tuning thread) that RRs should get accuracy boosts to 40% at least (too many are crap because they have 30 or even 20% acc), ROF boosts to 8 or 9 (if not 10) and AP buffs using the ATGM AP scale.

Actually AP buffs would make most of them a lot stronger than previously, a bit like the finnish Musti.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:24
by mvp7
Really small AP increase, better ROF and more ammo would be my favored improvements for the recoiless. Their HE fire-support capability is something I think could be easily developed without having them overlap too much with the role of ATGMs or infantry AT launchers.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:28
by Mike
RR meta? Gotta have it!

Buffs would be nice though.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:35
by urogard
Buffing them to the point of being able to 1 shot 2 AV vehicles would immediately result in them seeing more action.
Then a minor boost to RoF to 9 rpm and I think I'd be placing them into significantly more decks than I do right now

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:36
by delor
Bougnas wrote:That's probably the third of fourth time we are asking for RR changes :lol: .


Heh, that's a conservative estimate.

It's probably futile, but I'll toss my weapon-stats-adjustment only suggestion from the last one of these we had a month or so again.

Spoiler : :
Light Infantry
Norrslandjagare: Price buff to 25 points, AP increased to 15, accuracy increased to 35%
Hodou-Ren: AP Buff to 14
Lehka-Pechota: Price buff to 15
Gongbobyong: Price buff to 15, ROF buff to 8 r/m, ammo buff to 12

Hodou-Ren are in a decent place, post-buff. Norrslandjagare become the +5 HP, +5 cost version of them, which is generally not to the advantage of a unit but they've also got a nicer RR to go with that disadvantage.

REDFOR light infantry plays like the Motoshutzen; they have a weaker AT than their BLUFOR counterparts, but are 15 points instead of 20. This is a big advantage, but given the presence of similar units already in the roster this shouldn't be a shakeup. Bloc already has Motoshutzen, plus the Lehkas are hosed by overpriced transports anyway and still end up much worse off. RD doesn't have existing 15 point shock guys, but since they're a weaker coalition than Bloc, which does, I think they probably could stand to.

Overall, the role of these guys is to be attractively priced as an anti-infantry unit to compensate for the fact that RRs aren't that good overall as an AT weapon despite that nice range.

FISTs
Bibanchungpo: Cost 15, 1225m, 45% acc, AP 12, HE 2, ROF 14, 20 ammo, availability 12 trained
BD M67 guys: Cost 15, 1400m, 40% acc, AP 14, HE 3, ROF 12, 16 ammo, availability 12 trained
SPG-9D: Cost 20, 1400m, 40% acc, AP 16, HE 2, ROF 14, 20 ammo, availability 8 hardened (shock)
Tanke Shashou '85: Cost 20, 1400m, 40% acc, AP 16, HE 3, ROF 12, 16 ammo, availability 10 trained

Pretty similar to the way they are, but with more ammo and ROF so that they've got a chance to pop something before they get pounded into the ground. The higher ROF comes from the assumption that multiple men in the FIST squad are carrying a launcher.

The 90+mm guys get ROF 12, HE 3, and the sub-90mm guys get ROF 14, HE 2. Prices go up a bit for everyone except the M67 guys, but you're getting a lot more firepower and ammunition in the package so I think it's a net win.

VEHs
10 points buys you 1750m, 40% acc, AP 14, HE 2, 10 r/m (sub-90mm RRs)
10 points buys you 1750m, 40% acc, AP 14, HE 3, 9 r/m (90+mm RRs, except for the three exceptions below)
15 points buys you 1925m, 35% acc, AP 15, HE 3, 9 r/m (9031 m/77)
20 points buys you 1925m, 35% acc, AP 17, HE 3, 9 r/m (9031 m/84)
20 points buys you 2100m, 35% acc, AP 14, HE 4, 8 r/m (L6 Wombat)
Rensou and Ontos go up to 40% accuracy but otherwise remain unchanged

Pretty small changes here, for the most part. Modest ROF buff, small AP buff. The m/84 and L6 get to be special to add some flavor as higher-end RRs. Overall, the intended role is to be a picket that can threaten light vehicles like APCs and IFVs on a budget.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:41
by Admiral Piett
I suspect RRs are destined to be bad forever. It is unfortunate, as it would help the dragons quite a bit.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:48
by Partibrejker
That would be interesting. I am sure OT M-60PB, Musti, RD, and bunch of other stuff would like that. :D

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 23:02
by Bougnas
In before Pvpj 1110 m/77 with 16AP (500mm IRL) and m/84 with 22AP (800mm IRL) :lol:

Besides, why aren't the T-21 Tarasnice and M67 RCL considered as RPGs ingame? They are shoulder fired like the Carl gustav and ain't that big.

Re: What if Recoiless Rifles weren't bad?

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016 23:09
by JoonasTo
They're mostly bad because all the systems in the game are bad in real life.

Eugen didn't really favour bringing in Cat A RRs too much.
They're pretty good in the Cat C games though. They just don't age that well.