Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Awesomer
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FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Awesomer » Sat 31 Dec 2016 02:36

Hey FLX,

Just wanted to ask for your reasoning behind the reduction of the Maglans from 5 to 10 men. I know that this seems obvious to most ppl *cough die maglans die cough*. But I think there was a more elegant solution to this problem. To start, I think reducing the missile loadout from 5 to 4 was a good idea. But I think the mistake was reducing the strength of the squad from 10 to 5, and not INSTEAD changing the availability from 2 cards of 4,3 to one card of 5,4. Let me explain:

I have been on the receiving end of a lot of Maglan spam and cheese in many 1v1 matches against Israel, but I have also played Israel quite a bit, and the problem that I have noticed, and Razzman's famous video pointed out is that ppl tend to spam them and scatter them across many areas, or concentrate them (as done in the video) against a push of vehicles. Reducing the missile loadout helps to deal with this problem. But by not changing the availability people are still able to spam them. By reducing the availability you essentially get rid of this problem.

My rationale for keeping the strength at 10 men is simply to help their surviveability. At this point they are easily 2-shoted by any tank, AND would be easily killed by shock or regular infantry. As SF recon, this makes them seem dull.

I know you guys are constantly in search for "flavor" in the game. Therefore, if you kept the strength at 10, but reduce the availability to 1 card, 5,4; you essentially get rid of the spamming, and keep the uniqueness and resiliency of the unit in tact (therefore holding its flavor :D) - similar to the Erikoisrajaakari of Finalnd. I would keep the missile loadout at 4, but nerf the price back to 40. Any thoughts FLX on this?

I welcome the community's thoughts as well.

I know that I am not the only one who thinks this...

PS - Thanks for at least changing the # of models of the squad, for consistencies sake.
Last edited by Awesomer on Sat 31 Dec 2016 02:41, edited 1 time in total.

nande
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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby nande » Sat 31 Dec 2016 02:41

nty. Their utility is still there. They're still incredibly dangerous on flanks, they just no longer need an unreasonable investment to be dealt with.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Awesomer » Sat 31 Dec 2016 03:07

nande wrote:nty. Their utility is still there. They're still incredibly dangerous on flanks, they just no longer need an unreasonable investment to be dealt with.


Fair enough, but didn't they take it too far? Reducing the missile loadout helps to prevent them from killing off more of your stuff, OK. But now given a 5 man strength, they can be easily wiped out by mortar fire (30 pts), or smoke (again 30 pts), and a two stack of reserve infantry (10 pts). It would require a lot more to take out say, a squad of Padobranci 90', priced at exactly the same amount.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Fade2Gray » Sat 31 Dec 2016 03:33

I say wait a month or two and then pass judgment.
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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby nande » Sat 31 Dec 2016 03:33

Awesomer wrote:easily wiped out by mortar fire (30 pts), or smoke (again 30 pts)
???

Awesomer wrote:It would require a lot more to take out say, a squad of Padobranci 90'
and that's great, because they lack ATGM range, are more expensive to bring out, and were even weaker vs inf before this change.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Awesomer » Sat 31 Dec 2016 03:46

Fade2Gray wrote:I say wait a month or two and then pass judgment.


You are right with that one good sir... Time will tell.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Awesomer » Sat 31 Dec 2016 04:03

nande wrote:
Awesomer wrote:easily wiped out by mortar fire (30 pts), or smoke (again 30 pts)
???

Less HP... bombard them, and they die quicker??

Awesomer wrote:It would require a lot more to take out say, a squad of Padobranci 90'
and that's great, because they lack ATGM range, are more expensive to bring out, and were even weaker vs inf before this change.


Can you elaborate on this one... At this point they cost the same to bring out as Maglans (with the exception of 5 pt nunnun and 10 pt Hamer). Why should it be hard to kill Padobranci and easy to kill Maglans? Padobranci also have a 1 card, 9 availability, with a whooping 26 AP (1050m range), no its not ATGM range, but those guys in forests can wreck any vehicle and stand their own against inf. One can argue that it takes way more than 50 points, to neutralize them... Is this not imbalanced? I agree, there was a problem with maglans, but changing the availability would have fixed this. You wouldn't have been able to spam them, or be really crazy to stack them. They aren't bad, ur right they still have their utility, but they lack durability. In comparison to other coalitions/standalones, ISR has no durable SF recon... of which every other coalition has. At least proposing my changes would have fixed that. Alternatively, could have done a re-roll with Shayatet 13 into recon and maglan into inf, to fix that up too.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 31 Dec 2016 04:09

Bumbar/Eryx are more like really nice RPGs. Also, they do not have the recon optics. And no cheap transport.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby Demonicjapsel » Sat 31 Dec 2016 04:10

Awesomer wrote:Can you elaborate on this one... At this point they cost the same to bring out as Maglans (with the exception of 5 pt nunnun and 10 pt Hamer). Why should it be hard to kill Padobranci and easy to kill Maglans? Padobranci also have a 1 card, 9 availability, with a whooping 26 AP (1050m range), no its not ATGM range, but those guys in forests can wreck any vehicle and stand their own against inf. One can argue that it takes way more than 50 points, to neutralize them... Is this not imbalanced? I agree, there was a problem with maglans, but changing the availability would have fixed this. You wouldn't have been able to spam them, or be really crazy to stack them. They aren't bad, ur right they still have their utility, but they lack durability. In comparison to other coalitions/standalones, ISR has no durable SF recon... of which every other coalition has. At least proposing my changes would have fixed that. Alternatively, could have done a re-roll with Shayatet 13 into recon and maglan into inf, to fix that up too.


Range...

The MR Spike has 2450 range, which means it outranges all FSV's and Tanks. If you have Maglan Square off against various tanks, it wins (barring freak outliers) against any tank under 80 pts, plays roughly even in the 80-120 bracket, and loses to the 120+ bracket of tanks.

The Difference between Pado's and Maglan is that the first is still dependent on recon, and can, in certain cases be successfully kited by FSF's. Maglan on the other hand, doesn't need recon or armored support to work effectively, since it will kill the majority of vehicles send against it. Likewise, it kills off infantry without any problem.

The real disgusting part here is that they are better in nearly every way then Gorno's 90s but can be fielded cheaper.

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Re: FLX - Reconsidering Maglan Situation

Postby RedFive » Sat 31 Dec 2016 05:28

They're still going to be tough to shake from towns with long sight lines, which is where Maglans really shine anyway. The ATGM kills the transports far enough out that the MG has time to cream the infantry on the way in.

At 10 HP they were tough to wear down with bombs or artillery, and you needed more points of infantry to kill them even if you got into CQC. At 5HP these counters will be more effective, so Maglans will need more micro and supporting units to be most effective. I think that's a positive change.

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