Durable Israel 10-man recon team

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KattiValk
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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby KattiValk » Tue 3 Jan 2017 05:37

I wouldn't go so far as to say a ten man team is vital for Israel's recon tab, but it certainly is a bigger hole than most. I wouldn't be against giving Israel a beefy infantry recon, but still having both cards of Maglan seems to be recon enough. You just have to push with your strong core units and leave your recon a little behind, which is an acceptable flavor choice.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby RedFive » Tue 3 Jan 2017 14:10

Awesomer wrote:Yes, you make a good point. Mixed blue mech is top-tier not Israel. Here is the issue I noticed about this. Lets just say we each have 100 pts. You get the Merkava IIA and the rovait 90', I get 4 XA-185KT (the ones with the bushmaster II) and 4 jaakari 90'. I guarantee I will win that fight hands down.

I wouldn't bet on it, I'd give them about even odds depending on how well microed each side is.
Just having the best IFV, doesn't mean that it is competitive. I think the reason for the success of yugo/entente is that they could spam a lot of effective infantry in some excellent, diverse (ATGM and great autocannons) IFVs, all this giving great fire support.

Israel was certainly competitive before this patch, and I'd be surprised if it isn't still in the top three now.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby BuLLeT.ZA » Tue 3 Jan 2017 14:30

RedFive wrote:
BuLLeT.ZA wrote:Israel has its weaknesses. The lackluster IFVs without autocannon or ATGMs is another big one.

I dunno, Israel has the absolute best IFVs in the game, they're literally tanks. So good that they get used in mixed decks, some would argue they're what has made blue mixed mech competitive.


Well sure they get two cards of the Merkava IIA. Which is not particularly good, and costs 90pts by itself. Granted it has it's uses, but it's hardly a staple unit. Just looking at the Brits for example, who get the FV510 with the 30mm autocannon and Milan launcher for 25 points...

I hear what you're saying, but one semi-decent, extremely expensive IFV does not make up for a total lack of other fighting vehicles in my opinion.

Still, I can live with it, and that kind of difference certainly does add "flavor" to the game.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby karsayor » Tue 3 Jan 2017 14:41

Maglans are much better balanced now, thanks. They are still very powerful but at least not unkillable anymore.

About the 4 missiles, well the Crotale / HQ7 only have 4 missile and is still useful.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby RedFive » Tue 3 Jan 2017 15:11

BuLLeT.ZA wrote:Well sure they get two cards of the Merkava IIA. Which is not particularly good, and costs 90pts by itself. Granted it has it's uses, but it's hardly a staple unit.

It is one of the main reasons to play Israel, pretty much the definition of a staple. I don't think I've ever played with or against an Israel deck that did not use them.
Just looking at the Brits for example, who get the FV510 with the 30mm autocannon and Milan launcher for 25 points...

Of all the example IFVs you could pick...citing the Rarden gun as a positive is *really* stretching it, that gun is awful. There are certainly other good IFVs that are cheaper, but none of them are as survivable or deal damage in the same way as the Merkava. That plus an extremely effective 2AV 3xMG 5pt transport and Israel is pretty well situated for mechanized transports (I'd agree that their wheeled options are pretty lacking, though).
I hear what you're saying, but one semi-decent, extremely expensive IFV does not make up for a total lack of other fighting vehicles in my opinion.

It literally does, though.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby Awesomer » Tue 3 Jan 2017 15:39

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say a ten man team is vital for Israel's recon tab, but it certainly is a bigger hole than most. I wouldn't be against giving Israel a beefy infantry recon, but still having both cards of Maglan seems to be recon enough. You just have to push with your strong core units and leave your recon a little behind, which is an acceptable flavor choice.


Gameplay and balance wise, I think it is a large gap. I think more games need to be played to test this out for sure, but from the few games that I have played is it a fairly big whole. Again I wouldn't be arguing this point if it wasn't a standalone nation, but right now as it stands it is. To bring in more supporting line and line shock infantry is investing way to many points to keep more durable recon infantry in forests, flanks, and major cities. From what I can tell this isn't so much about flavour as it is about balance.

They way I like to think of israel is to compare it to its redfor equivalent, ussr. Yes there are gross differences, but one could argue they are balanced, i.e., israel as very expensive and limited but effect IFV (merkava IIA), while USSR has multiple cheaper, but still effect IFVs (BMP series). That balance makes sense. The fact that israel doesn't have durable recon infantry is a huge gap the way I see it. Again, I think the cheap way to solve this is to make the Bedouins a 10-man shock team, and give them some lame AT (M72 LAW) on top of current loadout, effectively makes them a JSDF equivalent. Alternatively (not so easy) give them another recon inf squad that fulfills the same role

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby Scottz » Tue 3 Jan 2017 19:06

Or you could swap IDF's SF infantry and SF recon, thus taking away Maglan's optics and stealth to some extent. Not the best alternative, but something. :roll:

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby Awesomer » Tue 3 Jan 2017 19:12

Scottz wrote:Or you could swap IDF's SF infantry and SF recon, thus taking away Maglan's optics and stealth to some extent. Not the best alternative, but something. :roll:


Yup! An idea put forth by Markenwicz I think. Works too.

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby antred » Tue 3 Jan 2017 20:59

Awesomer wrote:Don't get me wrong weaknesses are fine absolutely. I'm not saying Israel has to have the BEST recon infantry *cough Maglans*. What I am saying is that they have no 10-man recon team, meaning no durable infantry recon. All of it can get two shotted by tanks, or line infantry. Some nations are designed like this, I.e. Yugoslavia. BUT at least yugo has the option of getting the specialny with the entente coalition. Also... I am not asking for the best 10-man recon team, they don't have to be SF, just a 10-man recon team; the equivalent of Sissi, JSDF rangers, Pruzminki(Czech shock recon).


You think a 5 man-elite recon team is not durable enough? Think of nations like West Germany that have to choose either been a friggin' militia 5-man team or 2 man-sniper team that evaporates if someone so much as farts as in their general direction. :evil:

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Re: Durable Israel 10-man recon team

Postby Awesomer » Tue 3 Jan 2017 21:23

antred wrote:
Awesomer wrote:Don't get me wrong weaknesses are fine absolutely. I'm not saying Israel has to have the BEST recon infantry *cough Maglans*. What I am saying is that they have no 10-man recon team, meaning no durable infantry recon. All of it can get two shotted by tanks, or line infantry. Some nations are designed like this, I.e. Yugoslavia. BUT at least yugo has the option of getting the specialny with the entente coalition. Also... I am not asking for the best 10-man recon team, they don't have to be SF, just a 10-man recon team; the equivalent of Sissi, JSDF rangers, Pruzminki(Czech shock recon).


You think a 5 man-elite recon team is not durable enough? Think of nations like West Germany that have to choose either been a friggin' militia 5-man team or 2 man-sniper team that evaporates if someone so much as farts as in their general direction. :evil:


Cheer up mate :D, I get your point. West Germany is not a standalone though, Israel is. Meaning... That 5-man or 2 team recon team can be offset by the Commandos Para (France), if you take Germany as Eurocorps. Since Israel is standalone, it doesn't have that option. All I'm arguing is Fair Play, to give it that option. You can make the same case for yugoslavia for example, but again they have entente (meaning specialny).

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