Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

RedFive
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Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby RedFive » Wed 11 Jan 2017 01:47

A discussion in another thread about the generally poor cost efficiency of 15-man squads got me thinking: What if they received a 50% buff to RoF of their primary weapon? Their machine gun and RPG stats would be unchanged, but with 55% (9+5) more soldiers operating the primary weapon (battle rifle, assault rifle, carbine, or submachine gun), a higher RoF would seem to be a realistic way to buff them without making them overpowered.

Spoiler : Analysis :
Assuming 20pt 10 man shock squads and 30pt 15 man squads using a standard assault rifle (232rpm, 45% acc) and machine gun (428rpm. 30% acc), here's the current situation:

Code: Select all

                      3x10man  2x15man
Hit points               30       30
Main Weapon RoF         696      464
Main weapon DPM*        313      209
Machine Gun RoF        1284      856
Machine Gun DPM         193      128
Total HE DPM            506      337


It's clear that for the price of just one more transport the three 10-man squads greatly outperform the two 15-man squads, to the tune of about 50% more HE damage per unit time. This ignores the greater RoF of three RPG launchers vs two and additional fire support of an extra transport, as well.

Now, with a 50% increase in RoF on the assault rifle for the 15-man squad (348rpm, acc unchanged):

Code: Select all

                      3x10man  2x15man
Hit points               30       30
Main Weapon RoF         696      696
Main weapon DPM*        313      313
Machine Gun RoF        1284      856
Machine Gun DPM         193      128
Total HE DPM            506      441


Now the 10-man squads still hold an advantage, but it has gone from about 50% to about 15%, which much more closely corresponds to the cost difference (with 10pt transports it's around 13%, with 15pt transports the cost difference is about 16%). The three 10-man squads retain their advantage in RPG RoF and additional transport fire support.

Advantages:
- 15-man squads become more viable, without overshadowing 10-man squads completely

Drawbacks:
- 15-man squad pricing is a bit inconsistent, especially at the very high and very low ends. Examples: Korps Mariniers would greatly benefit from this change yet cost the same as many 10-man SF squads, they might need to be made more expensive. 15-man reservist squads might need some attention too, they should likely never be 5pts if this change were implemented.
- Possibly I am missing other advantages of 15-man squads, such as reload times.

Good idea? Horrible? What do you think?

*DPM is approximated by RoF*Accuracy*HE, which is not the whole picture but is sufficient for this example.

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby Partibrejker » Wed 11 Jan 2017 01:58

It is an interesting idea, though 50% increase is a bit too much, those guys already benefit health boost (since there are 5 guys more), and I see where you are going with this, since there are more of them, and thus more bullets are coming buzzing from them. Though I would go with 20% benefit max, so that other guys could someone get a chance. This way(with 50%) I think that those 15 guys could easily swallow ~25ish ordinary teams (like 10+10+5), because if you increase ROF, the suppression value should, logically, also go up.
Spoiler : :

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby urogard » Wed 11 Jan 2017 02:25

some additional buff is necessary, 50% would be overkill as you already get the benefit of having 50% more HP, but more often than not, it's not enough to warrant that +5 pts cost increase (givati, brdska pes and korps marinier 95' being exceptions)

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby codextero » Wed 11 Jan 2017 02:43

Partibrejker wrote:It is an interesting idea, though 50% increase is a bit too much, those guys already benefit health boost (since there are 5 guys more), and I see where you are going with this, since there are more of them, and thus more bullets are coming buzzing from them. Though I would go with 20% benefit max, so that other guys could someone get a chance. This way(with 50%) I think that those 15 guys could easily swallow ~25ish ordinary teams (like 10+10+5), because if you increase ROF, the suppression value should, logically, also go up.


Except Rifle DPS is not 50% of the DPS of the unit. It's anywhere from half to 3/4th depending on unit. A 50% rifle DPS buff would in effect be around 25 to 40% buff to actual DPS.

The shock 15 men could do with their current price (except Givanti, Fallskjermjeger 90, and Gurkhas 90), but the Elite 15 men would all have to go up in price.

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby Mister Maf » Wed 11 Jan 2017 06:34

In that thread I suggested a 25% buff to primary weapon rate of fire, which I myself took from someone else's post in yet another thread on the same topic. I think it could work — a modest damage boost would both be logical and also make the +5 cost on these units worthwhile.

Kaartinjääkäri and Commandos '90 are examples of how a relatively small RoF bonus can send a unit from average or below average to very strong.
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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby Killertomato » Wed 11 Jan 2017 06:49

As long as it's rifle ROF and not MG ROF, this is a good idea.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby QUAD » Wed 11 Jan 2017 07:29

This would make 15 men SMG squads literal terminators in close quarters.
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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby codextero » Wed 11 Jan 2017 08:12

QUAD wrote:This would make 15 men SMG squads literal terminators in close quarters.


As long as they are appropriately priced, there's nothing wrong with it. It also make the game more WYSIWYG, which is good.

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby Seryn » Wed 11 Jan 2017 08:21

codextero wrote:
Partibrejker wrote:It is an interesting idea, though 50% increase is a bit too much, those guys already benefit health boost (since there are 5 guys more), and I see where you are going with this, since there are more of them, and thus more bullets are coming buzzing from them. Though I would go with 20% benefit max, so that other guys could someone get a chance. This way(with 50%) I think that those 15 guys could easily swallow ~25ish ordinary teams (like 10+10+5), because if you increase ROF, the suppression value should, logically, also go up.


Except Rifle DPS is not 50% of the DPS of the unit. It's anywhere from half to 3/4th depending on unit. A 50% rifle DPS buff would in effect be around 25 to 40% buff to actual DPS.

The shock 15 men could do with their current price (except Givanti, Fallskjermjeger 90, and Gurkhas 90), but the Elite 15 men would all have to go up in price.


One thing I've noticed using Proletari '90s (I am normally not so free firing of my shocks when I have regulars unless FRG cuz Jagers are just so ehhhhhh and DDR HAS no regulars) is that the killing typically doesn't start until the Rifles start blasting Away (referring to SHOCK squads, not Elites as MG42 Pados and Minimi SF are chainsaws even without rifle fire) as LMGs and SAWs typically have long down times after firing and not so stellar burst durations (in the case of Mag fed). Rifles add to the damage and suppression to an extent that rifle and LMG are inseparable in a standard professional squad layout. Even Riflemen and Strelkis can do some serious damage when both weapons are singing from cover. I'd say the Primary is closer to a majority of DPS in closer ranges (especially elite carbines and Kaartinjaakari) due to reduced downtime and higher base accuracy (though it is roughly the same as LMGs due to range acc scaling)
QUAD wrote:This would make 15 men SMG squads literal terminators in close quarters.

Pretty sure Kaartinjaakari are already both 15 men and Terminators due to their PewPewShaw-41 and AGLBus.

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Re: Suggestion: 15-man squads +50% RoF on primary weapon

Postby codextero » Wed 11 Jan 2017 09:05

Seryn wrote:One thing I've noticed using Proletari '90s (I am normally not so free firing of my shocks when I have regulars unless FRG cuz Jagers are just so ehhhhhh and DDR HAS no regulars) is that the killing typically doesn't start until the Rifles start blasting Away (referring to SHOCK squads, not Elites as MG42 Pados and Minimi SF are chainsaws even without rifle fire) as LMGs and SAWs typically have long down times after firing and not so stellar burst durations (in the case of Mag fed). Rifles add to the damage and suppression to an extent that rifle and LMG are inseparable in a standard professional squad layout. Even Riflemen and Strelkis can do some serious damage when both weapons are singing from cover. I'd say the Primary is closer to a majority of DPS in closer ranges (especially elite carbines and Kaartinjaakari) due to reduced downtime and higher base accuracy (though it is roughly the same as LMGs due to range acc scaling)


Rifles don't roll as often as MG's do.

You can actually tell the Rolls/minute on a rifle by just looking at the card, take the ROF and divide by 10. Rifles roll slower than MG's all the way until elite SMG, the difference is that Rifles do 1 HE while MGs do 0.5, however, suppression per roll is the same. Line Rifles take a back seat to the LMG in both damage and suppression for the duration of the LMG burst. Shock Rifles usually do more than the LMG in damage but still fall behind in suppression. Elite Rifles do a lot more damage, but still have less suppression.

15 man squads with +50% rifle ROF will be superb killers, but poorer at suppressing. That's an ok niche for 15 man squads to have, rather than the current niche of being crap.

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