If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

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hansbroger
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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby hansbroger » Tue 24 Jan 2017 20:54

In 1997? Lots of Western stuff.

Things in the West are just peachy from 1993-2002 compared to the economic catastrophe suffered by the East with the fall of the Soviet Union and economic privatization. Simply put the West goes into the 1990s fully funding R&D and still to a reasonable degree funding acquisition programs and fielding new kit. Admittedly some programs do get the axe (Vextra) and others got pushed down the road (AMX-10RCR) while some were combinations of the two, getting axed but later becoming the technology base for later acquisitions based on the same specifications but in more permissive budget environments (VBCI). In the West, the party isn't going as crazily as it did in the 1980s, they've just toned down the music so that everyone can enjoy their "Peace Dividend".

So what if you're China, the EB, the DPRK or the USSR? To grossly generalize you are in one of three situations:
1: ITF you no longer exist. R&D nonexistent, your people are trying to figure out how to make a government and economy that provides basic services while elites pillage and sell off/outsource your industry, scientists flee and go work for western firms like Boeing... It doesn't matter if the prototype cuttoff is 1993, 1995, 1997... Your defense industry, R&D and Procurement plain don't exist. If you're lucky your successor country has managed to sort things out and is producing things for export or modernization come the late 1990s (maybe if you got off lucky like the CSSR) or more likely your defense industry starts staggering around like it's 1989 with the help of western imports in the 2000s (see Poland).

2: Gulf War 1 was a wake-up call from complacency and you didn't embark on full scale modernization of your forces until after seeing the Revolution in Military Affairs manifested in a real life third world curb stomp >_> PRC :( Despite ingenuity, diligence, lavish attention to building the national defense industry and the distressing willingness of Western/Israeli defense contractors to sell away technological crown jewels... These programs take time and most of the kit that they're bringing out (be it J-10, ZTZ-90/96 etc etc etc) is late 1980s early 1990s level tech which is great except most of them mature in the late LATE 1990s or more usually the 2000s.

3. You were a participant in an alternative socialist economic/trade system with subsidies and technology transfers (DPRK/Cuba) and then suddenly got cut off in the 1990s, economic mismanagement/structural deficiencies/natural disasters compound the situation as do Western Economic Sanctions. Turns out you are very much in the same situation as #1, trying to maintain a functional state and economy that provides basic services to your polity. R&D, Acquisition and investment in the defense industry takes a secondary importance. Even if there is an emphasis on national defense (DPRK) international sanctions and a lack of access to fraternal developments in military technology restrict your ability to develop and field new systems at the same rate as Western nations. Eventually in the 2000's (DPRK) you manage to sort out most of the economic problems and have gotten your defense industry back on its feet producing stuff that would have been relatively leading edge.. in 1985-89.....

What would really work is a 1995 cuttoff for the the West and a 2007 cuttoff for RedFor. RedFor whether it is the PRC, Russian Federation, DPRK or Zombie Warsaw Pact have not created anything that matches, let alone exceeds the units and technologies fielded by the West by 1991-93, let alone what comes around in 1997. You really have to move the RedFor unit cuttoff 10-15 years ahead of the West just to get them close to catching up.
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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby PzAz04Maus » Tue 24 Jan 2017 20:58

kiheerSEDMAN wrote:The real question is if Wargame needs a Twilight 2000 iteration.


I want the Giraffe M1A2, the LAV-75, the FST-1, and yes.

wargamer1985 wrote:Mike Sparks...oh boy...

That is a whole can o' worms.


Spoiler : :
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Ya think?

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby Artruis » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:11

hansbroger wrote:In 1997? Lots of Western stuff.

Things in the West are just peachy from 1993-2002 compared to the economic catastrophe suffered by the East with the fall of the Soviet Union and economic privatization. Simply put the West goes into the 1990s fully funding R&D and still to a reasonable degree funding acquisition programs and fielding new kit. Admittedly some programs do get the axe (Vextra) and others got pushed down the road (AMX-10RCR) while some were combinations of the two, getting axed but later becoming the technology base for later acquisitions based on the same specifications but in more permissive budget environments (VBCI). In the West, the party isn't going as crazily as it did in the 1980s, they've just toned down the music so that everyone can enjoy their "Peace Dividend".

So what if you're China, the EB, the DPRK or the USSR? To grossly generalize you are in one of three situations:
1: ITF you no longer exist. R&D nonexistent, your people are trying to figure out how to make a government and economy that provides basic services while elites pillage and sell off/outsource your industry, scientists flee and go work for western firms like Boeing... It doesn't matter if the prototype cuttoff is 1993, 1995, 1997... Your defense industry, R&D and Procurement plain don't exist. If you're lucky your successor country has managed to sort things out and is producing things for export or modernization come the late 1990s (maybe if you got off lucky like the CSSR) or more likely your defense industry starts staggering around like it's 1989 with the help of western imports in the 2000s (see Poland).

2: Gulf War 1 was a wake-up call from complacency and you didn't embark on full scale modernization of your forces until after seeing the Revolution in Military Affairs manifested in a real life third world curb stomp >_> PRC :( Despite ingenuity, diligence, lavish attention to building the national defense industry and the distressing willingness of Western/Israeli defense contractors to sell away technological crown jewels... These programs take time and most of the kit that they're bringing out (be it J-10, ZTZ-90/96 etc etc etc) is late 1980s early 1990s level tech which is great except most of them mature in the late LATE 1990s or more usually the 2000s.

3. You were a participant in an alternative socialist economic/trade system with subsidies and technology transfers (DPRK/Cuba) and then suddenly got cut off in the 1990s, economic mismanagement/structural deficiencies/natural disasters compound the situation as do Western Economic Sanctions. Turns out you are very much in the same situation as #1, trying to maintain a functional state and economy that provides basic services to your polity. R&D, Acquisition and investment in the defense industry takes a secondary importance. Even if there is an emphasis on national defense (DPRK) international sanctions and a lack of access to fraternal developments in military technology restrict your ability to develop and field new systems at the same rate as Western nations. Eventually in the 2000's (DPRK) you manage to sort out most of the economic problems and have gotten your defense industry back on its feet producing stuff that would have been relatively leading edge.. in 1985-89.....

What would really work is a 1995 cuttoff for the the West and a 2007 cuttoff for RedFor. RedFor whether it is the PRC, Russian Federation, DPRK or Zombie Warsaw Pact have not created anything that matches, let alone exceeds the units and technologies fielded by the West by 1991-93, let alone what comes around in 1997. You really have to move the RedFor unit cuttoff 10-15 years ahead of the West just to get them close to catching up.

Except that none of it matters- weapons generally have made up stats constructed around balance, not performance. All you are gonna get is the same old units with fancier names.
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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby XanderTuron » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:18

What late '90s? That means Canada gets the LAV III! That is also when Canada started the upgrade program for the CF-188s that eventually gave them AMRAAM capability!
My mouth is moving, but nothing relevant is coming out. Also I cannot guarantee that my research is perfect or even remotely accurate.

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby RedFive » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:21

I'll go against the grain here and say I'd rather see the year pushed back. Pick a single year (no Cat-A,B,C) from before the Cold War ended; anything in service that year is fair game, anything else isn't. That way there's none of this hypothesizing about what would and wouldn't have entered service, or what their performance would be like.

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby GARGEAN » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:23

Solo wrote:What if 1997

F-22
Comanche
AH-1Z prototype
More Superhornets
AIM-120B/C
AIM-9X
Javelin
SRAW (essentially Eryx +1 AP)
M1A2 SEP
M3A3 Bradley
XM2001 Crusader
LAV-AD
M4A1

AIM-9X 2002 year?
M1A2 SEP 1999 year?

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby KattiValk » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:29

PzAz04Maus wrote:I want the Giraffe M1A2, the LAV-75, the FST-1, and yes.
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Very yes.

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby Mike » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:47

Don't let this thread distract you from the fact that the Comanche first flew January 4th, 1996.
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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby another505 » Tue 24 Jan 2017 21:52

All I want for my VDV deck , heck, 2 of them already fits current proto time

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Re: If the timeline was extended to 1997, what prototypes would become suddenly available?

Postby Mike » Tue 24 Jan 2017 22:35

another505 wrote:All I want for my VDV deck , heck, 2 of them already fits current proto time

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Looks like someone took a BMP-3 and just played with the scaling. :lol:
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