Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

shnowitzer
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Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby shnowitzer » Tue 7 Feb 2017 03:20

I would like to point out that Finland did not adopt the Spike missile until the year 2000, which makes it out of time frame.
Now I like Finland, they are fun to play. But this is another case of Eugen being arbitrary. If we are going to be arbitrary like this I would like to point out that the Netherlands adopted the Spike missile to replace the M47 dragon in 2001, only one year later. So whose to say that the Dutch don't get the spike missile as well. (After all they are a DLC nation, and this game is now p2w amirite?)

throwaway
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby throwaway » Tue 7 Feb 2017 03:56

too bad they didnt adopt it in 2000!

shnowitzer
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby shnowitzer » Tue 7 Feb 2017 04:00

throwaway wrote:too bad they didnt adopt it in 2000!

hahaha, I guess you are right.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Stillehavet » Tue 7 Feb 2017 09:07

1. Finland bought 9K113 Konkrus / AT-5 Spandrel ATGM for mounting on BMP-2. I can accept that the infantries can remove the ATGM from vehicle and carry themselves, but I can't understand why Finland has no 9K113 attached BMP-2, as they planned to use first.

2. Finnish F-18's introduced date is set as 1995, but actually the Finnish's Hornets were in flying test at St.Louis in USA at that time. They received their Hornets and AIM-9M at 1996, and AIM-120 at 1998.

3. Finnish Spike-MR squad named PstOhj 94 and set the introduced date as 1994, but this is perfectly wrong creativity's products. Finnish's real Spike-MR name is PstOhj 2000, and they received them during 2000-2002.

4. 9M38(SA-11) introduced in 1996 at Finland, so their name is ITO 96. but in game, this one's introduce date set as 1993. And more, The reason that USSR gave 9M38 to Finland is paying back the portion of debt on Finland with another kinds. But WRD is based on alternative histroy, where USSR hasn't fallen so there's no reason USSR get debt from Finland, and give any kind of equipments for paying back the debt.

5. Telak 84 is same as Isreal's Sholef, this one is SPG based on Merkava III. but the project was cancelled while developing, so IDF can use this as protype. Then how can Finland received this, which project is already doomed in development phase?
I'm a Scandinavia player, and my game nickname is #SWE JAS-39 Gripen.
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Oktoberfest » Tue 7 Feb 2017 11:24

Stillehavet wrote:1. Finland bought 9K113 Konkrus / AT-5 Spandrel ATGM for mounting on BMP-2. I can accept that the infantries can remove the ATGM from vehicle and carry themselves, but I can't understand why Finland has no 9K113 attached BMP-2, as they planned to use first.

2. Finnish F-18's introduced date is set as 1995, but actually the Finnish's Hornets were in flying test at St.Louis in USA at that time. They received their Hornets and AIM-9M at 1996, and AIM-120 at 1998.

3. Finnish Spike-MR squad named PstOhj 94 and set the introduced date as 1994, but this is perfectly wrong creativity's products. Finnish's real Spike-MR name is PstOhj 2000, and they received them during 2000-2002.

4. 9M38(SA-11) introduced in 1996 at Finland, so their name is ITO 96. but in game, this one's introduce date set as 1993. And more, The reason that USSR gave 9M38 to Finland is paying back the portion of debt on Finland with another kinds. But WRD is based on alternative histroy, where USSR hasn't fallen so there's no reason USSR get debt from Finland, and give any kind of equipments for paying back the debt.

5. Telak 84 is same as Isreal's Sholef, this one is SPG based on Merkava III. but the project was cancelled while developing, so IDF can use this as protype. Then how can Finland received this, which project is already doomed in development phase?


Because Finland is a (P2W) DLC that was developped later on and so the usual balancing issues and prototype limitations don't apply. The balance is based on nation and Finland and Yugoslavia (or Israel) should be able to go 1v1 vs USA or USSR.

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Eukie
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Eukie » Tue 7 Feb 2017 12:34

Occasionally weapons are planned for procurement earlier than they're bought because of budget constraints caused by the end of the Cold War/the dissolution of the Soviet Union. According to Tiera, the Finnish SPIKE is one of those.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Sleksa » Tue 7 Feb 2017 12:38

Stillehavet wrote:1. Finland bought 9K113 Konkrus / AT-5 Spandrel ATGM for mounting on BMP-2. I can accept that the infantries can remove the ATGM from vehicle and carry themselves, but I can't understand why Finland has no 9K113 attached BMP-2, as they planned to use first.


Mostly it was due to the Finnish terrain not offering many places to use long range atgm's on vehicles as well as a doctrinal thing where ifv's are not tasked with destroying enemy armor. Instead that job is given to the antitank portion of the panssarijääkäri they're transporting.

More info on how they would've been actually used during a wartime setup is written by Tiera in the Finnish thread.


Stillehavet wrote:2. Finnish F-18's introduced date is set as 1995, but actually the Finnish's Hornets were in flying test at St.Louis in USA at that time. They received their Hornets and AIM-9M at 1996, and AIM-120 at 1998.


First Finnish pilots were already in training in 1992 in St Lois. First 7 hornets of the D model flew from USA to Finland in 1995, with local production of C models starting from 1996 onwards in Kuorovesi. Aim-120 date however is correct, which is still a bit faster than Sweden's procurement of them iirc, as well as 4-6 times more in quantity.

Stillehavet wrote:3. Finnish Spike-MR squad named PstOhj 94 and set the introduced date as 1994, but this is perfectly wrong creativity's products. Finnish's real Spike-MR name is PstOhj 2000, and they received them during 2000-2002.


The real Spike-MR was indeed chosen in 2000 as a replacement for aging atgm systems like fagot missiles, some of which were already expired.

Originally the plan was to compare different systems in 1992-1994 and start procuring from 1994-1995 onwards. Spike and some other systems were tested during 1994, but due to the hornet sale cutting the budget of many different projects including aa modernization, artillery procurement and antitank systems, the purchase was delayed massively. Other competitors for the replacement included a "modernized and shorter range konkurs system" from USSR as well as a few others, but since Spike was heavily favoured in the original testing it was recommended to be added into the roster in a scenario where Finland buys 20 hornets instead of 64 and doesn't cripple it's military procurement budget for the next decade because of it.

4. 9M38(SA-11) introduced in 1996 at Finland, so their name is ITO 96. but in game, this one's introduce date set as 1993. And more, The reason that USSR gave 9M38 to Finland is paying back the portion of debt on Finland with another kinds. But WRD is based on alternative histroy, where USSR hasn't fallen so there's no reason USSR get debt from Finland, and give any kind of equipments for paying back the debt.


USSR was heavily in debt to Finland by the end of cold war. Considering Ito 96 was in production since 1983 it's hardly a secret piece of tech and it's very likely it would've been procured whether the country "giving" them was called Ussr or Russia.

Other items Russia offered as a payment for USSR era debts included the following:
MiG-31M (Yeltsin's presidential decree to sell them, documents are in the Finnish thread iirc)
S-200 system
Industrial materials
Svirs and T-72 modernization kits
various other small arms, armored vehicles

But were not recommended to be added since none of the material was really wanted by the Finns, with the svirs being offered much earlier on and not acquired due to same terrain reasons as why the 9p135m1 launchers weren't going to be used on ifv's in wartime.

5. Telak 84 is same as Isreal's Sholef, this one is SPG based on Merkava III. but the project was cancelled while developing, so IDF can use this as protype. Then how can Finland received this, which project is already doomed in development phase?


More information is once again available on the Finnish thread, but long story short the gun on the sholef was Finnish made, shipped to Israel for testing where it spent a few years firing about 300 rounds in various conflicts, got shipped back to Finland afterwards and was dismantled and scrapped in Finland almost immediately after. The logic behind adding it was pretty much about already having the model for it made during israel dlc and the Finnish roster somewhat lacking in the artillery department.
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby deadnation » Tue 7 Feb 2017 14:03

Like anyone ever cared about the time frame? They have idea what kind of faction they want, they think what kind of units they want for it, then they search for units/weapons/weapon systems that fit those roles, if "realistic" stats are not totally OP or under powered follow them. Time frame has nothing to do about which units should be added. They as far we know may have decided stat first and then just chosen some weapon/unit name which are close enough of the performance the stats give to it. Time frame or names of stuff doesn't matter, the stats do.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Tiera » Tue 7 Feb 2017 14:18

See the FDF thread for more info. Just like with Yugoslavia, the FDF roster butterflies away the OTL cutbacks caused by collapse of USSR.
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Tiera » Tue 7 Feb 2017 14:27

deadnation wrote:Like anyone ever cared about the time frame?

Me and Sleksa, for starters.
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