Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

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MARDER
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby MARDER » Tue 7 Feb 2017 17:11

deadnation wrote:Like anyone ever cared about the time frame? ......



They have to. If not where are my macros japan Mechs and the US Mechwarriors? How much will the time line be stretched? Where are the laser weapons and all that funky future stuff? Getting to abstract is bad, it kills the suspension of disbelieve.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby XanderTuron » Tue 7 Feb 2017 23:28

Weren't a lot of Finnish procurement plans delayed due the entire budget being spent on the F-18s?
My mouth is moving, but nothing relevant is coming out. Also I cannot guarantee that my research is perfect or even remotely accurate.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Guggy » Tue 7 Feb 2017 23:40

Finnish MiG-31M would have been quite a sight to see

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby shnowitzer » Wed 8 Feb 2017 02:14

First Finnish pilots were already in training in 1992 in St Lois. First 7 hornets of the D model flew from USA to Finland in 1995, with local production of C models starting from 1996 onwards in Kuorovesi. Aim-120 date however is correct, which is still a bit faster than Sweden's procurement of them iirc, as well as 4-6 times more in quantity.

Stillehavet wrote:3. Finnish Spike-MR squad named PstOhj 94 and set the introduced date as 1994, but this is perfectly wrong creativity's products. Finnish's real Spike-MR name is PstOhj 2000, and they received them during 2000-2002.


The real Spike-MR was indeed chosen in 2000 as a replacement for aging atgm systems like fagot missiles, some of which were already expired.

Originally the plan was to compare different systems in 1992-1994 and start procuring from 1994-1995 onwards. Spike and some other systems were tested during 1994, but due to the hornet sale cutting the budget of many different projects including aa modernization, artillery procurement and antitank systems, the purchase was delayed massively. Other competitors for the replacement included a "modernized and shorter range konkurs system" from USSR as well as a few others, but since Spike was heavily favoured in the original testing it was recommended to be added into the roster in a scenario where Finland buys 20 hornets instead of 64 and doesn't cripple it's military procurement budget for the next decade because of it.



I find this all to be rather circumstantial, and don't buy it. And going by your explanation, the way I see it Finland can either have the F-18 or the Spike MR, but not both. You say that Finnish pilots first began receiving F-18 training in 1992. As in after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war. By then Finland would have normalized relations with the US. But in the case of the wargame's alternate history timeline, the USSR still exists and cold war alliances are still in place. Therefore the US would have no reason to sell weapons to a nation they view as hostile, and Finland would not acquire F-18s, but are now able to purchase the Spike MR. You also state that because they decided to buy F-18s, they lacked the money to purchase the Spike MR. Going by actual history, if Finland buys F-18s, then procurement of the Spike MR gets pushed back to 2000 which is out of time frame.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby thenosh » Wed 8 Feb 2017 08:51

Eugen is aware of this for sure. I see however their POV. Eversince Israel the Nation Dlcs became more potent. Why not? We have Unicorns everywhere. Be it Paperplanes or Prototypes. Would you've bout a DLC with another Anzac in it? Not me. People wanted the Nation Dlcs and it's up to Eugen how to realise them. Be it very strong and gameplaywise interesting or historically perfectly accurate and shitty. Don't forget, this plays in an alternate timeline. Best seen when looking as east block nations.
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Stillehavet » Wed 8 Feb 2017 09:47

Sleksa wrote:...
with local production of C models starting from 1996 onwards in Kuorovesi.
...


First of all, thank you for correcting me on that. :)

But according to your information, Finnish F-18's introduce date set as at least 1996. Because in game's one is F-18C, not F-18D.
(How about Mk.83*4 + AIM-9M*4 or Mk.83*8 + AIM-9M*2, 140~150pts range and 40% ECM?)

And I want to complain about the partial selection of history. If Finland appeared in game BLUFOR, as a pro-western Europe while being influenced by USSR maybe I can understand about the Spike-MR, Sholef, Hornet, etc...

But because RD is using the alternative histroy that USSR and the REDFOR didn't have suffered by economical crisis so they can keep conflicting against whole BLUFOR in here. USSR heavily debt by Finland so giving them SA-11 and some other kinds, USA and France selling their own prototypes(some things were even they didn't adopted yet!)... REALLY these events can be placed on this alternative history?

USSR was never been suffered by economical crisis so they wouldn't be dept other countries(Finland, South Korea, etc...), and keep influencing to Finland... Why USA and France, Isreal sell their high-end techonlolgy to their enemies(or enemies's satellite country)? Is Khomeini appeared in Finland after they received Hornets?

From my point of view, it seems there's no standard about basement.



shnowitzer wrote:I find this all to be rather circumstantial, and don't buy it. And going by your explanation, the way I see it Finland can either have the F-18 or the Spike MR, but not both. You say that Finnish pilots first began receiving F-18 training in 1992. As in after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war. By then Finland would have normalized relations with the US. But in the case of the wargame's alternate history timeline, the USSR still exists and cold war alliances are still in place. Therefore the US would have no reason to sell weapons to a nation they view as hostile, and Finland would not acquire F-18s, but are now able to purchase the Spike MR. You also state that because they decided to buy F-18s, they lacked the money to purchase the Spike MR. Going by actual history, if Finland buys F-18s, then procurement of the Spike MR gets pushed back to 2000 which is out of time frame.


I fully agree with this view.
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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby fippe » Wed 8 Feb 2017 11:19

Original procurement plan for the ASF was a 50/50 spread between USSR and Western providers (in this case, the US) as was common for Finland during the cold war. The order would have been a lot smaller in size, which wouldn't have crippled the other defense force procurements. More details can be found in the Finland thread where the issue has been extensively discussed.

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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Pantheon » Wed 8 Feb 2017 12:09

Stillehavet wrote:
Sleksa wrote:...
with local production of C models starting from 1996 onwards in Kuorovesi.
...


First of all, thank you for correcting me on that. :)

But according to your information, Finnish F-18's introduce date set as at least 1996. Because in game's one is F-18C, not F-18D.
(How about Mk.83*4 + AIM-9M*4 or Mk.83*8 + AIM-9M*2, 140~150pts range and 40% ECM?)

And I want to complain about the partial selection of history. If Finland appeared in game BLUFOR, as a pro-western Europe while being influenced by USSR maybe I can understand about the Spike-MR, Sholef, Hornet, etc...

But because RD is using the alternative histroy that USSR and the REDFOR didn't have suffered by economical crisis so they can keep conflicting against whole BLUFOR in here. USSR heavily debt by Finland so giving them SA-11 and some other kinds, USA and France selling their own prototypes(some things were even they didn't adopted yet!)... REALLY these events can be placed on this alternative history?

USSR was never been suffered by economical crisis so they wouldn't be dept other countries(Finland, South Korea, etc...), and keep influencing to Finland... Why USA and France, Isreal sell their high-end techonlolgy to their enemies(or enemies's satellite country)? Is Khomeini appeared in Finland after they received Hornets?

From my point of view, it seems there's no standard about basement.



shnowitzer wrote:I find this all to be rather circumstantial, and don't buy it. And going by your explanation, the way I see it Finland can either have the F-18 or the Spike MR, but not both. You say that Finnish pilots first began receiving F-18 training in 1992. As in after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war. By then Finland would have normalized relations with the US. But in the case of the wargame's alternate history timeline, the USSR still exists and cold war alliances are still in place. Therefore the US would have no reason to sell weapons to a nation they view as hostile, and Finland would not acquire F-18s, but are now able to purchase the Spike MR. You also state that because they decided to buy F-18s, they lacked the money to purchase the Spike MR. Going by actual history, if Finland buys F-18s, then procurement of the Spike MR gets pushed back to 2000 which is out of time frame.


I fully agree with this view.


Why would changing the Hornet to D variant change its loadout?

France and Israel don't really care are you socialistic or under their influence as long as you don't threaten their interest. That explains Sholef, Crotale and Spike.

And MadMat anyways said that a coup happened post-1991 (don't remember the exact year) that made the Finland definitely REDFOR.

Crotale NG not being on French is BS, La Fayette has it and French don't AFAIK operate them on land based platforms.

If timeline would be 2016 would you be one of those people who want USA to have F-15 Slam Eagle or F-16C Block 60? Even when they do not operate them? Companies can keep sellin and upgrading their merchandise even when their parent country doesn't need them.


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Re: Finnish Spike missile out of time frame.

Postby Tiera » Wed 8 Feb 2017 13:52

The costs of the original fighter acquisition program - that goes ahead in Wargame - of 20 new F-18s, 20 MiG-29s and the continued service of 20 Drakens/MiG-21bis, are remarkably lower than the RL order of 64 new F-18s.

Which means that RL acquisition plans of weapons that were already in active service go ahead as originally planned.

And at the end of the day these units are not domestically made feats of Yugoslav magical makebelieve retrofuture engineering, but RL Soviet, US, French and Israeli weapon systems which were all tested, due to be bought, and up for sale for FDF in the timeframe.
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