TRIGAT the true Euromissile

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hansbroger
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TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby hansbroger » Thu 9 Feb 2017 21:26

I was exploring possibilities for more lethal domestic armaments for the Tiger and Panther over in the Force Legere thread and came across an interesting program that some people may not know about. While just missing the RD Proto cutoff date, it nonetheless is an interesting program to look at and a fascinating prospect for WG 4 if it moved further into the 1990s/closer to present day. That program is TRIGAT

TRIGAT originated as a Pan-European Project between France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and later Italy to create a multi-platform advanced anti tank missile system (you can probably see where this is going). It suffered a long, tortuous development program and the disappearance of the Soviet Tank Armies it was supposed to defeat in the first place didn't help things either when it came to attracting money, which resulted in partners dropping out of the program as they thought they no longer needed the capability or acquiring proven off the shelf systems like the laser guided Hellfire to fulfill operational requirements. However in the setting of Wargame this system if fielded by the partner nations, would have had the same proliferation as the ubiquitous Milan system used across many coalitions in game, but far more capable than its predecessor.

Despite its tortuous development the LR component of the system exists in service with the German Military in the form of the PARS 3 LR which at least shows us that something usable finally came out of the program. Overall it is a fascinating missile, both due to its high performance as well as the ultimate simplicity and high interoperability of the design. Perhaps the greatest irony of the designs' limited sales success is its easy integration into platforms designed to use Milan and HOT. Ultimately despite all of its eventual merits, it was a missile without a target.

So what's so cool about TRIGAT? TRIGAT as a system is far more than the end product that we most often associate with it, namely the TRIGAT LR/PARS 3 LR which is commonly known and associated as a helicopter armament on Bundeswehr UH Tigers. In fact TRIGAT is an ATGM system which does what few ATGMs manage to do which is cover the entire trinity of launch platforms from infantry to AFV to Helicopters. There were two variants, TRIGAT MR and TRIGAT LR, of which only the LR made it to service.

Indeed while most people will identify the missile in the foreground, there has always been another parallel development lurking in the background. That program is TRIGAT MR.
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TRIGAT MR
Actually the most interesting half of the system in my opinion. Why? The missile and its sight were purposely designed to integrate directly onto existing Milan launch units meaning any existing infantry Milan launch post or those mounted on AFVs would be easily converted to compatibility with this new, highly lethal missile system without the cost of fully replacing the existing launch infrastructure. Does your faction have Milan Infantry? Does your faction have Milan on vehicles? Good news, it is trivial to convert either of these lanchers over to a SALH ATGM with dual modes of attack and a tandem charge .

The missile has a range out to 2400m and uses the same soft launch as Eryx. The missile maneuvers by thrust vectoring and has a tandem charge warhead with an IR proximity fuse. Guidance is by Optical Beam-Riding (OBR) of a coded IR laser beam generated in the 10 urn wavelength region. All the gunner has to do is to keep the cross- hairs of his sight on the target. The missile automatically locks onto the centre beam after launch and receives its flight commands via the laser receiver unit mounted at its rear. In game it would be a highly accurate and lethal ATGM in the 2450m range.

TRIGAT (PARS 3 MR) was delivered for 12 months of troop trials in the third quarter of 1996, delivery of first hardware for start of technical and military evaluation was in the first quarter of 1997 while hot and cold weather firing trials were conducted in 1999-2000. As can be seen in the following images a PARS 3 MR module was at least mocked up if not accepted by the Bundeswehr.

It also seems that the UK was investigating the use of the TRIGAT MR as an infantry anti tank system as well as on vehicles, there are hints that either the TRIGAT MR or LR was intended to replace Swingfire on the FV102 which would have provided a highly lethal anti-tank vehicle in either case. I'm looking for more substantial documentation but I'm more convinced it is the LR as that provides a similar capability to Swingfire in an F&F form. The system was also mocked up and trialed on the VBL as a tank destroyer (no suitable images yet).

Gallery (the available images are not always that great, doing my best to find more.
Spoiler : :
Cutaway of TRIGAT MR in launch container
Simple diagram of TRIGAT MR missile
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Bare bones with barely modified Milan firing post.
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Trigat MR with thermal sight visible on the unit to the left
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Strangely most of the promotional materials seem to be people wearing DPM
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Trigat MR team operating out of a FV 510 Warrior
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More suspicious characters in DPM
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TRIGAT MR firing to test suitability for use with FV102 system
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Good grief those Brits are all over this thing (there's pictures of French troops with the system but they're all too tiny to show :cry: )
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TRIGAT LR
So I lied. TRIGAT LR may be the cooler of the two systems. It essentially is the synthesis of a Longbow Hellfire and a Javelin. Guidance is by an automatic passive imaging infrared CCD homing seeker and the missile possesses a tandem HEAT warhead which is employed either with a terminal dive to top attack armoured targets or a direct attack profile to engage low- flying or hovering helicopters.

Cool story by the way. Allegedly the first firing of the Helicopter borne system was from a AS565 Panther rather than the tiger.

The fire-control equipment (computer, display processor, target trackers and alignment processor) evaluates each target acquired by the sensor sight head assembly. This is used for target surveillance, recognition and identification. All the gunner has to do is designate an acquired target for attack. The tracker units allow independent tracking of up to four independent targets automatically. Once a target is designated, an automatic handover sequence is initiated to a missile seeker so that it can lock on. When this is achieved the missile is fired with the gunner having the option to fire up to four ready to fire rounds at individual targets as a ripple firing within 8 seconds.

This missile was further designed to be compatible with systems using the infrastructure for the preceding HOT missile system and would have been a blockbuster of an anti tank missile on the Tiger helicopters in game as well as various HOT carrying ground platforms. Still tracking things down but it seems highly likely that the UK was eyeing this missile as a modernization of the FV102 ATGM carrier. The system was also earmarked for AMX-10 and VAB HOT carriers. Overall Eurocorps and the Commonwealth just barely missed out on a multi platform F&F top attack missile on Helo and AFV platforms with the same range as Spike-LR. That being said, it's undeniably OOTF, indeed IOC is thought to be somewhere around 1998-2004.
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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby Guggy » Thu 9 Feb 2017 21:37

Definitely a sweet write up :) A shame we don't get more write ups like this in some sort of community information routine.

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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby homerfcb » Thu 9 Feb 2017 21:47

Good thread and well researched. A big +1 from me.

Actually this would even be a possibility for current wargame. Although being out of time frame, the current armament of the Tiger is nothing that we would have seen in real life. The first Tiger prototypes flew without weapons or completed weapon systems. The first combat ready Tigers appeard after the appeareance of the new ATGM systems.
If cold war continued it's pretty plausible that thing would have developed faster.

Especially the PAH-2 is a clear cold war development. And the main requirement was the capability to destroy modern soviet armor. If you say stuff like the PARS is OOTF, the PAH-2 also is.
Maybe HOT-3 for PAH-2 and Hellfire for french Tiger would be a bit better, though. Theses missiles are simply a bit more ITF. But as it is a clear cold war product, I wouldn't have any problem with a 1997 intro date Tiger.

Before Comanche Fans(Who is actually not a Comanche fan? I like them, too) come up, the difference is that Tiger is already in the game, I wouldn't mind adding the Comanche, but in the first place Tiger should get a realistic loadout, meaning 8xHot-3 or Pars-3 and Hellfires for the french version, well even for the German version Hellfires would be more realistic than the current loadout...
The big nerf whiners thread, much controversal stuff, some suggestions and some more stuff, also with a big Patriot range explanation Just klick me, or go here viewtopic.php?f=155&t=48184

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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby hansbroger » Thu 9 Feb 2017 22:45

homerfcb wrote:Good thread and well researched. A big +1 from me.

Actually this would even be a possibility for current wargame. Although being out of time frame, the current armament of the Tiger is nothing that we would have seen in real life. The first Tiger prototypes flew without weapons or completed weapon systems. The first combat ready Tigers appeard after the appeareance of the new ATGM systems.
If cold war continued it's pretty plausible that thing would have developed faster.

Especially the PAH-2 is a clear cold war development. And the main requirement was the capability to destroy modern soviet armor. If you say stuff like the PARS is OOTF, the PAH-2 also is.
Maybe HOT-3 for PAH-2 and Hellfire for french Tiger would be a bit better, though. Theses missiles are simply a bit more ITF. But as it is a clear cold war product, I wouldn't have any problem with a 1997 intro date Tiger.

Before Comanche Fans(Who is actually not a Comanche fan? I like them, too) come up, the difference is that Tiger is already in the game, I wouldn't mind adding the Comanche, but in the first place Tiger should get a realistic loadout, meaning 8xHot-3 or Pars-3 and Hellfires for the french version, well even for the German version Hellfires would be more realistic than the current loadout...


By the strict definition of Wargame's proto cutoff it is OOTF but at the same time it can very well be said to be concurrent with the Tiger which happens to be in game... which does give it a basis for inclusion in the game. In the following I refer to the system as TRIGAT because referring to the system as PARS 3 LR or AC 3G (French designation) gets a bit confusing.

Normally I would be against the implementation of another missile like the Longbow Hellfire however in the case of the Tiger it doesn't seem nearly as troublesome as it is on the Longbow Apache, indeed there are actually benefits.
1. With a high AP 2800m (not doing more 2975m cancer sorry) F&F missile there is absolutely zero need for the Tiger to have stealth which gets rid of yet more artificial "steelth" from the game.
2. Unlike the Apache the Tiger is a decidedly less resilient platform which is far more easily dealt with by anti-helicopter AA and manpads. This means it is actually counterable.
3. The Tiger is rarely seen carrying more than 8 of the missiles at any time, indeed it isn't clear if the outer 2 pylons can even mount the pods. This has the upside of keeping cost reasonable but the downside of reducing it to four salvos per "sortie". On the upside it can carry manpads or rockets to round out the portfolio and retain utility.
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4. Suggest reduction of PAH-2 Tiger optics to "Very Good" (Thermals not radar) and subsequent changes to the armament:
-PAH-2 has no gun IRL
-Gains 4 x TRIGAT LR
-Gains 4 x Stinger-C
-Gains Rocket pod
In this fashion we have a reasonably armed yet decidedly not OP "Very Good" optics ATGM/Recon helicopter for Eurocorps. In fact the ATGM+AAM+Rocket loadout is the most common loadout seen carried on the helicopter.
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Thus the PAH-2 becomes an anti-tank "Capable" recon helicopter without becoming a mainstay anti tank asset of the German deck, indeed using it as a primary F&F missile slinger will be annoyingly micro/flight time intensive as it should be. Sure it's possible that it could carry 8 x TRIGAT LR but half the cancer that is Longbow is still cancer. With 4 TRIGAT LR the PAH-2 will still be able to murder unguarded superheavies while being unable to single handedly shut down armored pushes, IMO the perfect compromise :D

Bonus. Here is the much vaunted Panther Anti-Char (or maybe just a testbed) :twisted: Now do we make it an ATGM helo, Recon Helo or a transport....
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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby FoxZz » Thu 9 Feb 2017 22:58

I'm actually fine with the French Tiger keeping HOT-2 missiles as it allow its price to stay low, furthermore, since the HOT buff, the HOT-2 has actually become a very decent missile. I think the current Tiger HAD is in a perfect spot currently.

The German Tiger could really use those 8 missiles though, and it would make sense for them to be top-tier missiles. The Tiger UHT should really be the EC longbow, considering how it was completly focused on AT duties.
But I'd like it to keep its flavour, so maybe, reducing its optics to Vgood is a good idea, but I would keep the stealth and 8 missiles + 4 AA missiles. Also, don't make the Trigat F&F but rather more like the Akula missile.
Last edited by FoxZz on Thu 9 Feb 2017 23:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby hansbroger » Thu 9 Feb 2017 23:03

FoxZz wrote:I'm actually fine with the French Tiger keeping HOT-2 missiles as it allow its price to stay low, furthermore, since the HOT buff, the HOT-2 has actually become a very decent missile. I think the current Tiger HAD is in a perfect spot currently. The German Tiger could really use those 8 missiles though, and it would make sense for them to be top-tier missiles. The Tiger UHT should really be the EC longbow, considering how it was completly focused on AT duties.


I'm of the mind that the TRIGAT would only be appropriate for a Wargame where things like Kornet, Javelin and other ATGM systems were proliferated as well as countermeasures like SIREN and SHTORA etc were modeled, rather than in RD. The HOT changes have made them viable and TBH I would bring the HOT 3 to 2800m (it does have longer range than the HOT and HOT 2 instead of changing the current missiles to TRIGAT.
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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby FoxZz » Thu 9 Feb 2017 23:10

The simplest solution being to just give it 8 HOT-2 instead of the rockets and that's it. Price and stats could stay the same (as it would lose all it's anti-infantry capabilities).

HOT-3 would be a nice alternative, but the range buff is really minimal though, don't think it warrants longer range, and it's a rather slow missile. But its AP does increase a lot. It could get like 27-28 AP.

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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby hansbroger » Thu 9 Feb 2017 23:17

FoxZz wrote:The simplest solution being to just give it 8 HOT-2 instead of the rockets and that's it. Price and stats could stay the same (as it would lose all it's anti-infantry capabilities).

HOT-3 would be a nice alternative, but the range buff is really minimal though, don't think it warrants longer range, and it's a rather slow missile. But its AP does increase a lot. It could get like 27-28 AP.


Yeah 8 high AP but SACLOS 2625m range AT missiles is not nearly as controversial as Longbow Hellfires, that would certainly be a boost to the coalition but it still would be highly situational.

Another great find for the Franco-German Airborne deck... How about this cute little thing for the recon or vehicle tab?
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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby Killertomato » Thu 9 Feb 2017 23:31

Completely aside from TRIGAT, HOT needs an accuracy buff to match TOW.
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Re: TRIGAT the true Euromissile

Postby cuski » Fri 10 Feb 2017 00:56

hansbroger wrote:4. Suggest reduction of PAH-2 Tiger optics to "Very Good" (Thermals not radar) and subsequent changes to the armament:


That's going to leave W-Germany with exactly ZERO exceptional optics platforms.

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