On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

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HrcAk47
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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 20 Feb 2017 15:13

FoxZz wrote:It doesn't stun indeed, but I believe it still inflicts more moral damage.


What's the point of this? Bigger HE causes more moral damage? Water makes clothes wet?

And considering 7HE missiles is a no go because of 1 hit crit kill, you still need to differantiate between a Phoenix and an AMRAAM when it comes to warhead. So keeping the AMRAAM to 5HE makes sense. Furthermore its logic, modern missiles relies more on accuracy than explosive to destroy a plane while older missile have a larger warhead so they can still kill the plane when they near miss, as such, older missiles carry a bigger warhead.


AIM-9 (later versions) have around 10 kg warheads. AMRAAM has 22 kg warhead. AIM-7s (later versions) have 39 kg warheads. Nearly double. AIM-54 has 60 kg (8 HE) warhead. The difference exists. And there should be a difference between AMRAAM and AIM-7. At the same time, there should be difference between AMRAAM and AIM-9 as well.

Well how many planes caryy the R60 and the R77 ?

They rather carry the R60/M at 4HE and a SARH missile such as the R24 missile which would be 6HE, so the issue would actually be solved.


17 planes carry R-60 or R-60M. R-60 can't oneshot a flying eggshell that is Gazelle. That is the 16 or so percent of Redfor air force being saddled with uselessness (and extra cost - every missile is +5 to price), never to be selected ingame unless they carry something else for ground attack. Which is not an issue. The issue is that there is a whole family of fighter planes (MiG-23), a staggering 6 of them which never ever see action, even though they were literally the backbone of Pact from 1970s to the very end (MiG-29s were usually obtained in small batches). Did you see a flying MiG-23 in game... ever?
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby urogard » Mon 20 Feb 2017 15:46

fox, for your own sake.
stop posting for just one day and think a bit more in depth about what you want to write about.
you're writing complete non-sense

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby FoxZz » Mon 20 Feb 2017 21:41

HrcAk47 wrote:
FoxZz wrote:It doesn't stun indeed, but I believe it still inflicts more moral damage.


What's the point of this? Bigger HE causes more moral damage? Water makes clothes wet?

And considering 7HE missiles is a no go because of 1 hit crit kill, you still need to differantiate between a Phoenix and an AMRAAM when it comes to warhead. So keeping the AMRAAM to 5HE makes sense. Furthermore its logic, modern missiles relies more on accuracy than explosive to destroy a plane while older missile have a larger warhead so they can still kill the plane when they near miss, as such, older missiles carry a bigger warhead.


AIM-9 (later versions) have around 10 kg warheads. AMRAAM has 22 kg warhead. AIM-7s (later versions) have 39 kg warheads. Nearly double. AIM-54 has 60 kg (8 HE) warhead. The difference exists. And there should be a difference between AMRAAM and AIM-7. At the same time, there should be difference between AMRAAM and AIM-9 as well.

Well how many planes caryy the R60 and the R77 ?

They rather carry the R60/M at 4HE and a SARH missile such as the R24 missile which would be 6HE, so the issue would actually be solved.


17 planes carry R-60 or R-60M. R-60 can't oneshot a flying eggshell that is Gazelle. That is the 16 or so percent of Redfor air force being saddled with uselessness (and extra cost - every missile is +5 to price), never to be selected ingame unless they carry something else for ground attack. Which is not an issue. The issue is that there is a whole family of fighter planes (MiG-23), a staggering 6 of them which never ever see action, even though they were literally the backbone of Pact from 1970s to the very end (MiG-29s were usually obtained in small batches). Did you see a flying MiG-23 in game... ever?


Wargame is a world of abstraction, IRL most of those missiles would one shot kill a plane. So having many HE value doesn't make the game more realistic.
7HE and 8HE (one shot kill and insta stun) missiles would be toxic, it's a no go. As such, we are left with 6HE and 5HE values. There is more differance between an AIM-7 and a AMRAAM than between a AMRAAM and a Sidewinder. So AMRAAM should stay at 5HE while AIM 7 would stay at 6. The issue is the 5HE + 4HE combo. But with most of 4HE missiles going to 5HE or being paired with a 6HE, then, there is no issue left. No need to overmade it.
Again, Derby R77, AMRAAM doen't need 6HE as all planes carrying those woud caryy 5HE SRAAM too (in what is proposed).

And I see regularly Mig 23 as rocket planes or for anti helcopter duty.
Well with what is proposed, all Mig 23 ASF would have 2 4HE and 2 6HE, so no issue here. Except the few with only WVR missiles, but hey you cannot have everything worth taking anyway.

Urogard, please explain how my argument in non sense.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 20 Feb 2017 22:34

:roll:
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby molnibalage » Tue 21 Feb 2017 02:01

FoxZz wrote:
Wargame is a world of abstraction, IRL most of those missiles would one shot kill a plane. So having many HE value doesn't make the game more realistic.

Yes, this is needed 6+5 or 5+5 HE standardized values. LRAAM above 6HE should be elimnatied because even their very low CTH they cause problems.

7HE and 8HE (one shot kill and insta stun) missiles would be toxic, it's a no go.


But why only for AAM is toxic such HE value? Largest SAMs have 9HE and even Tor and Osa have much smaller warhed than AIM-7 (1/3) they have 7HE. This is pretty big inconsistency in DB...

As such, we are left with 6HE and 5HE values. There is more differance between an AIM-7 and a AMRAAM than between a AMRAAM and a Sidewinder. So AMRAAM should stay at 5HE while AIM 7 would stay at 6.

Amen.

The issue is the 5HE + 4HE combo.

Exactly.

But with most of 4HE missiles going to 5HE or being paired with a 6HE, then, there is no issue left.

Exactly.

Only problem Eugen after 3 years of release still have not fixed these...


Well with what is proposed, all Mig 23 ASF would have 2 4HE and 2 6HE, so no issue here. Except the few with only WVR missiles, but hey you cannot have everything worth taking anyway.

Even the stone age R-60 should get 5HE but for this should suffer ACC penalty. Any ASF with only 4HE missile is garbage, even in era games because of era shift. Even in Cat C they are garbage. The most funny ASF is FRA Crusader with cannot kill any AC even all of its AAM hit the target.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby thelizardofdoom » Tue 21 Feb 2017 10:56

FoxZz wrote:I don't think AMRAAM, the R77 and Derby should go to 6HE, it would be toxic gameplay wise; And I don't think either we should have 7HE or 8HE missiles for the same reasons, except maybe the Phoenix.

5 HE should go up to 25kg HE warhead. Above 25kg warhead, 6HE. That's it.


Agreed death to 1 hit kill crits. But I don't think anyone disagred with 7 and 8. The issue is that pairing 6 he missiles would solve the 4 he missile problem.

Its rather strange we are buffing one missile to makeup for another one....seems more simple to just buff the 4he crap. The AC would still be garbage against helos with their horrible guns and still horrible IR missiles.
Yes im aware my grammar and spelling are dreadful. Email complaints to android for having terrible software or eugen for having a mobile unfriendly site.

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