On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

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molnibalage
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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby molnibalage » Mon 13 Feb 2017 16:53

HrcAk47 wrote:Only USSR and China get 5 HE SHORADs, both proto.

?????????
https://aqarius90.github.io/FA_WG_Utilities/

Roland 5 HE
Rapier 5 HE
Chaparral 6 HE
Tan SAM 5 HE
Crotale 6 HE

OSA 7 HE
Tor 7 HE
Strela-10 5 HE
Strela-1 4 HE ---> Totally wrong, should have 5HE either.

Even some MANPAD has 5 HE. BTW MANPAD also have issuse. If Stinger has 5 HE is not reason why Igla-1 have only 5 HE. Only stone age Redeye and Strlela-2 should have 4 HE and similar crap stuff.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 13 Feb 2017 16:57

molnibalage wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Only USSR and China get 5 HE SHORADs, both proto.

?????????
https://aqarius90.github.io/FA_WG_Utilities/

Roland 5 HE
Rapier 5 HE
Chaparral 6 HE
Tan SAM 5 HE
Crotale 6 HE

OSA 7 HE
Tor 7 HE
Strela-10 5 HE
Strela-1 4 HE ---> Totally wrong, should have 5HE either.

Even some MANPAD has 5 HE. BTW MANPAD also have issuse. If Stinger has 5 HE is not reason why Igla-1 have only 5 HE. Only stone age Redeye and Strlela-2 should have 4 HE and similar crap stuff.


Whoops, thought you were talking about MANPADs. My bad.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby Mephistopheles » Tue 14 Feb 2017 15:37

HrcAk47 wrote:So, I had an idea. Why not rebalance all air-to-air missiles properly, by weight?

Currently, SARH ASFs are in a very mediocre position. Almost everybody has them, but they are in the shadow of MRAAM slingers, which are quite prolific at this point in Wargame timeline. So why not give them a glimpse of hope?

The idea is to raise SARH BVR AAMs with 35-50 kg warheads to 7 HE.

Now why is 7 HE the magical number? 7 HE allows the (small) probability of one-shot-killing the enemy plane on a critical hit. While rare, it can happen. It gives those planes a "new life", of sorts. Levels the playing field. Sure, MRAAM slinger will fire 2-3 MRAAMs before knifefighting range and take it out, but sometimes, it will get the "last laugh". Not often. Not reliably. Sometimes. And when it does happen, you take a pic, and feel good.

Other side benefits of this approach is fixing plenty of "bugs" as old as time (AIM-9s and K-13s at 4 HE, R-24R at 5 HE), improving viability of a huge number of airframes that were before required to strike 3 shots to kill, often a very hard task against 50% ECM and similar technological behemoths of unexplainable ECM that are so prolific in skies of Wargame.

As well, it has a very positive effect on the planes from the MiG-23 family in particular - synergy of a now-6HE missile with 4 HE R-60(M) makes them viable for the first time in... forever. When was the last time you saw a MiG-23 in the sky?

This change will work the best if paired with some grand-scale reshuffling of plane loadouts, but even as-is, it can bring to life (maybe even to meta) quite a number of planes that are not MRAAM slingers.

Source: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/weapon/avv_data.html


Maybe another approach to SARH missiles is to fire them in pairs instead one by one. All modern aircrafts equiped with SARH and modern radar utilize this tactic. The radar is abe to guide both missiles into the same Target or two diffrent Targets. Of course this is also possible by AIM-120 missiles to a greater extend. Most aircrafts can enage 6 airplanes simultansly with SPAMRAMS.
But for Balancing reason u already stated it would be a good idea to limit that ability to only 3rd Generation SARH equiped aircrafts like F15A yugoslav Mig29 and etc.
That way we could keep the 6 HE damage on most SARH missiles and still making them very dangerous.
The Benefit of F&F equiped aircrafts is they can circle in a specific zone and keep firing while flying circles. They dont have to fly towards target to guide the missile.
On the other hand SARH equiped aircrafts have to fly towards eenemy target expsoing themselfs to various dangers.

I would limit ripple fire (2 missiles) only newer aircrafts and exclude the Mig25PD from that since it already has a huge HE output. It might be wise to cap max. range of SARH missiles with ripple fire mode to 7700m instead of 8400 m.

That would be my approach to give SARH equpped aircrafts back some life.
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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby molnibalage » Tue 14 Feb 2017 16:08

Mephistopheles wrote:Maybe another approach to SARH missiles is to fire them in pairs instead one by one. All modern aircrafts equiped with SARH and modern radar utilize this tactic.

Not only modern, but every SARH system ever developed have this. capability because of the principle of the guidance.

Ony problem it would make totally OP old SARH fighter because of math. You have access to 50%*1.32 = 66% (2/card elite ASF) and 60% with 3XP SARH platfroms like Su-27S. With pair launched - and way too high range R-27R - they simply beat any other AC from the sky evn in cat A because of double dice roll qty. within the same time. Instead of one diceroll they have double. So when an ARH capable jet launhes 1 ARH + 1 SR IRAAM in head on or 1 ARH vs 2x SARH with similar or same ACC the SARH platfrom will win.

Just make the calculation. SARH jets simply would kill all ASF.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

Also is quite hard to argue why you allow for SARH AAM and why you do not allow for SAMs and ARH or ANY missiles in the game this. In RL you can do it with ARH, IR and SARH either...

The radar is abe to guide both missiles into the same Target or two diffrent Targets.

Just a note. In RL The SARH missile guides itself. This is the point. You have unlimited missile channel with SARH but only one target channel with non ESA radar because you can illumniate only one target at a time. MiG-31 was the first ESA eqipped fither and had. sim. eng. capability beacuse of PESA.

First ESA based SAM systems were S-300PS/PT, Patriot and for naval the AEGIS. AEGIS was special because it required CW target illumination could not use the natural reflection of search radar, SPG-62 is the CW target illuminator.Image

F-15A with AIM-7 also used CW target illuminator but with AIM-7M the natural refelxion of AN/APG-63 could be used. MiG-23 also used CW illuminator, the difference between MiG-23 and F-15 the look down shoot down capability.

Of course this is also possible by AIM-120 missiles to a greater extend. Most aircrafts can enage 6 airplanes simultansly with SPAMRAMS.

Nope, most can "only" 4. Only problem on tactical level this is theoretical because of target designation and IFF limitations. Against non manov. cruise missiles and incoming ASMs. Maybe the most advanced ASF can recommend and designate to you 4 targets in total AUTO mode.

But for Balancing reason u already stated it would be a good idea to limit that ability to only 3rd Generation SARH equiped aircrafts like F15A yugoslav Mig29 and etc.

Even with this would make OP SARH fighters especially against only SR IR capable ASF..
... why are even today used by no one.

Also would make OP USSR because no other country has good and usable SARH ASF with two types of 60% base ACC AAM.

  • USA does not have or not B cat ASF at all. (+AIM-7F/M separation with 50/60 % base ACC still have not been made...)
  • UK B cat Tornado got only better ECM and longer range but both AAM have 50% base ACC.
  • Mirage-2000C has only 2xBVR missiles but at least with 60%, it would mean minor boost and still suffers from 5HE + 4HE combo.
  • DAN F-16 has only 50% AIM-7M instead 60%.
  • Viggen has only 50% BVR AAM.
  • JAP F-15J has only 50% AIM-7M.

While on red side except DPRK every MiG-29 have 60% R-27R and 60% R-73 so for them would mean such boost as Mirage-2000C EXCEPT they have 6+5 = 11HE killing capability comparing to 5+4 = 9HE Mirage-2000C.

Su-27S has 4xR-27R with 40% ECM AND 60% R-73. It would outclass any ASF with this change especially it comes with 3XP and 2/card.

This change would lead total imbalance between red and blue and also between current ASF type.

That way we could keep the 6 HE damage on most SARH missiles and still making them very dangerous.
The Benefit of F&F equiped aircrafts is they can circle in a specific zone and keep firing while flying circles. They dont have to fly towards target to guide the missile.
On the other hand SARH equiped aircrafts have to fly towards eenemy target expsoing themselfs to various dangers.

As long as you can launched double qty. of very high base ACC BVR missile the circle does not provie anyting because of lack of kinematic modeling. Such SAR ASF as Su-27 almost "instakill" any high ECM AC. They have much higher chance to hit first of hit two AAM and instakill.

I would limit ripple fire (2 missiles) only newer aircrafts and exclude the Mig25PD from that since it already has a huge HE output. It might be wise to cap max. range of SARH missiles with ripple fire mode to 7700m instead of 8400 m.

Would not help.

That would be my approach to give SARH equpped aircrafts back some life.

Rather it would make OP them - especially for red side - and would make even more pointless only SR IR AAM jet. Nobody ever used them even their price would be 0CP.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby Mephistopheles » Tue 14 Feb 2017 16:25

molnibalage wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:Maybe another approach to SARH missiles is to fire them in pairs instead one by one. All modern aircrafts equiped with SARH and modern radar utilize this tactic.

Not only modern, but every SARH system ever developed have this. capability because of the principle of the guidance.

Ony problem it would make totally OP old SARH fighter because of math. You have access to 50%*1.32 = 66% (2/card elite ASF) and 60% with 3XP SARH platfroms like Su-27S. With pair launched - and way too high range R-27R - they simply beat any other AC from the sky evn in cat A because of double dice roll qty. within the same time. Instead of one diceroll they have double. So when an ARH capable jet launhes 1 ARH + 1 SR IRAAM in head on or 1 ARH vs 2x SARH with similar or same ACC the SARH platfrom will win.

Just make the calculation. SARH jets simply would kill all ASF.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

Also is quite hard to argue why you allow for SARH AAM and why you do not allow for SAMs and ARH or ANY missiles in the game this. In RL you can do it with ARH, IR and SARH either...

The radar is abe to guide both missiles into the same Target or two diffrent Targets.

Just a note. In RL The SARH missile guides itself. This is the point. You have unlimited missile channel with SARH but only one target channel with non ESA radar because you can illumniate only one target at a time. MiG-31 was the first ESA eqipped fither and had. sim. eng. capability beacuse of PESA.

First ESA based SAM systems were S-300PS/PT, Patriot and for naval the AEGIS. AEGIS was special because it required CW target illumination could not use the natural reflection of search radar, SPG-62 is the CW target illuminator.Image

F-15A with AIM-7 also used CW target illuminator but with AIM-7M the natural refelxion of AN/APG-63 could be used. MiG-23 also used CW illuminator, the difference between MiG-23 and F-15 the look down shoot down capability.

Of course this is also possible by AIM-120 missiles to a greater extend. Most aircrafts can enage 6 airplanes simultansly with SPAMRAMS.

Nope, most can "only" 4. Only problem on tactical level this is theoretical because of target designation and IFF limitations. Against non manov. cruise missiles and incoming ASMs. Maybe the most advanced ASF can recommend and designate to you 4 targets in total AUTO mode.

But for Balancing reason u already stated it would be a good idea to limit that ability to only 3rd Generation SARH equiped aircrafts like F15A yugoslav Mig29 and etc.

Even with this would make OP SARH fighters especially against only SR IR capable ASF..
... why are even today used by no one.

Also would make OP USSR because no other country has good and usable SARH ASF with two types of 60% base ACC AAM.

  • USA does not have or not B cat ASF at all. (+AIM-7F/M separation with 50/60 % base ACC still have not been made...)
  • UK B cat Tornado got only better ECM and longer range but both AAM have 50% base ACC.
  • Mirage-2000C has only 2xBVR missiles but at least with 60%, it would mean minor boost and still suffers from 5HE + 4HE combo.
  • DAN F-16 has only 50% AIM-7M instead 60%.
  • Viggen has only 50% BVR AAM.
  • JAP F-15J has only 50% AIM-7M.

While on red side except DPRK every MiG-29 have 60% R-27R and 60% R-73 so for them would mean such boost as Mirage-2000C EXCEPT they have 6+5 = 11HE killing capability comparing to 5+4 = 9HE Mirage-2000C.

Su-27S has 4xR-27R with 40% ECM AND 60% R-73. It would outclass any ASF with this change especially it comes with 3XP and 2/card.

This change would lead total imbalance between red and blue and also between current ASF type.

That way we could keep the 6 HE damage on most SARH missiles and still making them very dangerous.
The Benefit of F&F equiped aircrafts is they can circle in a specific zone and keep firing while flying circles. They dont have to fly towards target to guide the missile.
On the other hand SARH equiped aircrafts have to fly towards eenemy target expsoing themselfs to various dangers.

As long as you can launched double qty. of very high base ACC BVR missile the circle does not provie anyting because of lack of kinematic modeling. Such SAR ASF as Su-27 almost "instakill" any high ECM AC. They have much higher chance to hit first of hit two AAM and instakill.

I would limit ripple fire (2 missiles) only newer aircrafts and exclude the Mig25PD from that since it already has a huge HE output. It might be wise to cap max. range of SARH missiles with ripple fire mode to 7700m instead of 8400 m.

Would not help.

That would be my approach to give SARH equpped aircrafts back some life.

Rather it would make OP them - especially for red side - and would make even more pointless only SR IR AAM jet. Nobody ever used them even their price would be 0CP.


Therefor i would only limit it to aircrafts with powerful radars. NNot that others cant do this. I am totally aware that evry aircraft can fire as many missiles it is carrying on a single target as long the radar beam is still active. But for balancing reasons its wise to limit is to 100+ SARH equipped aircrafts. No one wants 70 pts aircrafts to shoot down an SU27PU :D
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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby Mephistopheles » Tue 14 Feb 2017 16:26

Mephistopheles wrote:
molnibalage wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:Maybe another approach to SARH missiles is to fire them in pairs instead one by one. All modern aircrafts equiped with SARH and modern radar utilize this tactic.

Not only modern, but every SARH system ever developed have this. capability because of the principle of the guidance.

Ony problem it would make totally OP old SARH fighter because of math. You have access to 50%*1.32 = 66% (2/card elite ASF) and 60% with 3XP SARH platfroms like Su-27S. With pair launched - and way too high range R-27R - they simply beat any other AC from the sky evn in cat A because of double dice roll qty. within the same time. Instead of one diceroll they have double. So when an ARH capable jet launhes 1 ARH + 1 SR IRAAM in head on or 1 ARH vs 2x SARH with similar or same ACC the SARH platfrom will win.

Just make the calculation. SARH jets simply would kill all ASF.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

Also is quite hard to argue why you allow for SARH AAM and why you do not allow for SAMs and ARH or ANY missiles in the game this. In RL you can do it with ARH, IR and SARH either...

The radar is abe to guide both missiles into the same Target or two diffrent Targets.

Just a note. In RL The SARH missile guides itself. This is the point. You have unlimited missile channel with SARH but only one target channel with non ESA radar because you can illumniate only one target at a time. MiG-31 was the first ESA eqipped fither and had. sim. eng. capability beacuse of PESA.

First ESA based SAM systems were S-300PS/PT, Patriot and for naval the AEGIS. AEGIS was special because it required CW target illumination could not use the natural reflection of search radar, SPG-62 is the CW target illuminator.Image

F-15A with AIM-7 also used CW target illuminator but with AIM-7M the natural refelxion of AN/APG-63 could be used. MiG-23 also used CW illuminator, the difference between MiG-23 and F-15 the look down shoot down capability.

Of course this is also possible by AIM-120 missiles to a greater extend. Most aircrafts can enage 6 airplanes simultansly with SPAMRAMS.

Nope, most can "only" 4. Only problem on tactical level this is theoretical because of target designation and IFF limitations. Against non manov. cruise missiles and incoming ASMs. Maybe the most advanced ASF can recommend and designate to you 4 targets in total AUTO mode.

But for Balancing reason u already stated it would be a good idea to limit that ability to only 3rd Generation SARH equiped aircrafts like F15A yugoslav Mig29 and etc.

Even with this would make OP SARH fighters especially against only SR IR capable ASF..
... why are even today used by no one.

Also would make OP USSR because no other country has good and usable SARH ASF with two types of 60% base ACC AAM.

  • USA does not have or not B cat ASF at all. (+AIM-7F/M separation with 50/60 % base ACC still have not been made...)
  • UK B cat Tornado got only better ECM and longer range but both AAM have 50% base ACC.
  • Mirage-2000C has only 2xBVR missiles but at least with 60%, it would mean minor boost and still suffers from 5HE + 4HE combo.
  • DAN F-16 has only 50% AIM-7M instead 60%.
  • Viggen has only 50% BVR AAM.
  • JAP F-15J has only 50% AIM-7M.

While on red side except DPRK every MiG-29 have 60% R-27R and 60% R-73 so for them would mean such boost as Mirage-2000C EXCEPT they have 6+5 = 11HE killing capability comparing to 5+4 = 9HE Mirage-2000C.

Su-27S has 4xR-27R with 40% ECM AND 60% R-73. It would outclass any ASF with this change especially it comes with 3XP and 2/card.

This change would lead total imbalance between red and blue and also between current ASF type.

That way we could keep the 6 HE damage on most SARH missiles and still making them very dangerous.
The Benefit of F&F equiped aircrafts is they can circle in a specific zone and keep firing while flying circles. They dont have to fly towards target to guide the missile.
On the other hand SARH equiped aircrafts have to fly towards eenemy target expsoing themselfs to various dangers.

As long as you can launched double qty. of very high base ACC BVR missile the circle does not provie anyting because of lack of kinematic modeling. Such SAR ASF as Su-27 almost "instakill" any high ECM AC. They have much higher chance to hit first of hit two AAM and instakill.

I would limit ripple fire (2 missiles) only newer aircrafts and exclude the Mig25PD from that since it already has a huge HE output. It might be wise to cap max. range of SARH missiles with ripple fire mode to 7700m instead of 8400 m.

Would not help.

That would be my approach to give SARH equpped aircrafts back some life.

Rather it would make OP them - especially for red side - and would make even more pointless only SR IR AAM jet. Nobody ever used them even their price would be 0CP.


Therefor i would only limit it to aircrafts with powerful radars. NNot that others cant do this. I am totally aware that evry aircraft can fire as many missiles it is carrying on a single target as long the radar beam is still active. But for balancing reasons its wise to limit is to 100+ SARH equipped aircrafts. No one wants 70 pts aircrafts to shoot down an SU27PU :D

and i already stated it wmight be wise to decrease the range of SARAH missiles in that case
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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby molnibalage » Tue 14 Feb 2017 16:59

Mephistopheles wrote:Therefor i would only limit it to aircrafts with powerful radars. NNot that others cant do this. I am totally aware that evry aircraft can fire as many missiles it is carrying on a single target as long the radar beam is still active. But for balancing reasons its wise to limit is to 100+ SARH equipped aircrafts. No one wants 70 pts aircrafts to shoot down an SU27PU :D

and i already stated it wmight be wise to decrease the range of SARAH missiles in that case

The cheapest BVR capable jets are in 85-105 CP range

  • NWSP MiG-23ML,
    -only 2xSARH
    -both suffers from 5+4 HE. Is not reason why R-23R has only 5HE,
    -Even biggest problem the price difference between CZ and EG MiG-23ML with same capabilites according to this.
    https://aqarius90.github.io/FA_WG_Utilities/ I will check DB at home.
  • Viggen, only 2xSARH
  • Tornado F.2, the only 4xSARH in cat C
  • Mirage F.1, only 2xSARH, suffers from 5+4 HE is no reason why the SR IR AAM has 4HE,
  • IAF F-15A, is screwed as hell with 40% (!!) base ACC AIM-7F and AIM-9J which never was used by IAF...

These ASF have much less SARH range as Su-27S or even F-15A and only 2xSARH except Tornado F.2 and none has 60% base ACC. Only Mirage-2000C has 60% base ACC SARH but only 2x, and suffers from 5+4 HE.

While every MiG-29 except DPRK would get big boost of this cange because all R-27R capable has 60% ACC and none of them suffers 5+4 HE effect.

Pls. drop this idea. It is simply bad.

BTW before anybody would consider such big change at first old and still not resolved general issues should be fixed. For ex. the 5 HE SR IR AAM, AIM-7F/M spearation with 50/60% ECM. Check Xeno's thread...

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby thelizardofdoom » Fri 17 Feb 2017 01:08

Sleksa wrote:
thelizardofdoom wrote:Is this even a good idea at the base level though? Is it good for gameplay to have a plane from the 1960s be able to engage 1980s aircraft?

Doesn't seem good for logic at least.


The year of manufacture isn't as clear cut of an attribute as you make it sound out to be. One example being MiG-17's and19's vs brand new F-105's over Vietnam.


Maybe it isn't absolute but in general planes that are are made with decades old tech are going to have a disadvantage.

Realism aside if this is going to be a thing then what we will have is the min/Max. We will have all useful planes needing to be prices at 120+ and everything else, with some exceptions would be garbage.
Yes im aware my grammar and spelling are dreadful. Email complaints to android for having terrible software or eugen for having a mobile unfriendly site.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby MARDER » Fri 17 Feb 2017 20:09

Adjusting missel dmg also means plane hp has to be adjusted.

How can a singel engine mig 21 be as taugth as two engine mig 29?

Just slaping more he on rockets wont solve the problem.

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Re: On the rebalance of air-to-air missiles

Postby Guggy » Fri 17 Feb 2017 20:13

MARDER wrote:Adjusting missel dmg also means plane hp has to be adjusted.

How can a singel engine mig 21 be as taugth as two engine mig 29?

Just slaping more he on rockets wont solve the problem.


Tried this with modding, low ECM early jets get so hard countered by AA fire that it's hilarious and sad at the same time. 6 hp and low ECM just falls apart.

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