What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

User avatar
Fade2Gray
General
Posts: 8659
Joined: Wed 1 May 2013 23:30
Location: IED proof in Iraq
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 15 Feb 2017 06:05

Mako wrote:And I'd be interested in line infantry at least being bought by the platoon, with their supporting weapons included.


Actually I've wondered about bringing in all units by platoons. Tanks and mechanized infantry very rarely roll around by themselves in the type of battles that Wargame depicts. If tanks and everything were called in not singly but in groups of four, I think it would be pretty interesting.
Image
Image
Think you have what it takes to enlist into the military? You sure about that?

M4jor
Sergeant Major of the Army
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon 13 Jun 2016 12:59
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby M4jor » Wed 15 Feb 2017 06:11

1. Increase number of 5 pts trucks to 10 cards.

2. All Militia to 5 km/h or stationary (if possible) at 50 per card.

3. All Elite Inf to 6 per card and reduced to 1 per card.

4. All Line Infantry starts at 5 pts per unit up to 10 pts max (for good LAW only with 22+ AP)
OR
All Line infantry getting Good Optics.

5. All stinger/atgm teams to 5 per Squad with stealth bonus.
Avail beeing similar to Line Infantry.
Speed increased to 20 km/h

6. All LAW range reduction by half on average. General points decrease with all infantry across the board.

7. Buff to support infantry (SMAW, Deckungsgruppe and similar)

8. Remove all Napalm Launchers or Grenade Launchers.

9. Give all factions at least 1 recon and or elite unit with AA missiles (not necessary but it feels right)

10. Increase morale resitance to HE damage for all infantry if possible.

11. Increase Stealth of all infantry by one step.

12. Reduce Size of all inf or give all Infantry a ECM comparable value based on their training.

I d do a lot more if I could change the infantry engine in total...

User avatar
Mako
General
Posts: 7352
Joined: Sun 5 May 2013 20:00
Location: Cascadia
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby Mako » Wed 15 Feb 2017 06:19

Fade2Gray wrote:
Mako wrote:And I'd be interested in line infantry at least being bought by the platoon, with their supporting weapons included.


Actually I've wondered about bringing in all units by platoons. Tanks and mechanized infantry very rarely roll around by themselves in the type of battles that Wargame depicts. If tanks and everything were called in not singly but in groups of four, I think it would be pretty interesting.


I thought about it, but with units like tanks it would be kind of limiting to have a 600 pt call in.

There'd have to be some changes there. Though I do kind of dislike armor fights being all about the handful of super tanks, this alone wouldn't exactly change that.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

User avatar
Mike
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12406
Joined: Thu 20 Feb 2014 01:09
Location: Virginia, United States of America
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby Mike » Wed 15 Feb 2017 07:33

Sweedish_Gunner wrote:Just make it so unarmed trucks are 5 points, blind and can be captured by the enemy.

Edit; also allow transport infantry to be spawned to encourage the reuse of transports.


I'd go with blind, uncapturable and not auto targeted. Therefore the only way to give away you position is to knowingly do it yourself.
Image
Courtesy of KattiValk

User avatar
JoonasTo
Master Sergeant
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:30
Location: Somewhere in the Finnish woodlands
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby JoonasTo » Wed 15 Feb 2017 14:12

Seeing the game, I'd deduce from the scale that we need to model the units we have in a brigade.

So everybody needs basic rifle variant(s, if applicable{motorised, mechanised, airborne, marine, light, etc.}) basic anti-tank/basic fire-support, basic recon, advanced anti-tank(basically heavy ATGMs), advanced fire-support((AGS-17 for EVERYBODY!soviets), advanced recon, mortar, pioneer, anti-air and HQ.

Since it is set in the 90s I'd just pick the current variants, ditch all the 50s stuff. Reservists are not fit for this battlefield. Easier to balance with less stuff, especially cheap obsolete older stuff.

Units would come in their natural, realistic size, which, for most infantry, is a platoon. Obviously this creates a huge variation in the size and armament of the units. Soviet rifle platoons(30) are a lot smaller than US rifle platoons(42) etc. Only the main weapons of the soldiers are modeled as side-arms, grenades and such, are similar for everyone and can be disregarded on this level. Obviously RPGs with HE can fire HE rounds.

They're ordered around by the platoon too. Correct me if I'm wrong but not even the micro-obsessed US military commanders order single tanks or squads to do something on the field. This will change how the game plays a lot though. Currently Wargame is like a casual version of older small engagement tacticals like Close Combat. This would further distance it from those and bring it one layer higher.
I don't think this is a bad thing though. Those mostly deal with battalion level engagements while Wargame clearly deals with brigade level.

Experience could be used to model how good the leaders are in those units. As in, how well they place themselves in the forest line you tell them to hold, when they will open fire, etc. So while an inexperienced platoon holding the edge of a town might open fire on an approaching enemy infantry platoon at max range of the marksman an experienced one will only open fire when maximum firepower is in range or when spotted.
As a side benefit, this will also make recon/scouting more important.

Pricing would be pretty simple. Basic rifle platoon costs 40 points. Less fire-/manpower means cheaper units and vice versa.
So a soviet rifle platoon is a lot cheaper than an US rifle platoon meaning you can have more of them on the field for superior maneuverability but since it's not as tactically versatile as an US platoon(that has a dedicated weapons squad) due to lighter armament you will rely more on support platoons to deal with different threats.

The biggest obstacle to this would be the AI of the platoon commanders but seeing the current state of section commanders in Wargame(attacking like a peasant mob across open field) I don't think we have to worry about degrading it too much :lol:
The psychotic Finnish wood-elf

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6679
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby molnibalage » Wed 15 Feb 2017 14:53

Fade2Gray wrote:Infantry just needs a "facing" bonus. If two squads, A and B, are shooting it out with each other, normal damage. If squad C comes around and flanks squad A however, A takes higher damage from C, as well as increased moral damage.

Amen.

Of course, I'd also tweak the fuck out of air and artillery to not make them such panic buttons. Infantry brawls shouldn't be decided within 5 seconds by a mortar barrage.

The problem is in forest and at close in case garrisoned inf. vs. approaching inf. combat even today ends after seconds and retreating is immpossible because of morale dmg which has effect on speed.

Even Vasilek many times cannot do anyting. Against inf. in. city block mortars have no effect with HE. I mostly smoke the opponent if. to get better cell vs. cell qty. and force the opponent to leave the city block. (Smoke is faster as HE, which is quite funny modeling method.)

User avatar
morpher
Major-General
Posts: 3975
Joined: Sun 17 May 2015 21:03

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby morpher » Wed 15 Feb 2017 15:03

Something radical: sane pricing.

User avatar
JoonasTo
Master Sergeant
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:30
Location: Somewhere in the Finnish woodlands
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby JoonasTo » Wed 15 Feb 2017 15:11

Fade2Gray wrote:
Mako wrote:And I'd be interested in line infantry at least being bought by the platoon, with their supporting weapons included.


Actually I've wondered about bringing in all units by platoons. Tanks and mechanized infantry very rarely roll around by themselves in the type of battles that Wargame depicts. If tanks and everything were called in not singly but in groups of four, I think it would be pretty interesting.

I've actually been playing around with the idea of building your deck around that idea a bit, though not exactly, more like requiring you to adhere closer to actual OOB. Like so:

Brigade(3-5 battalions + air squadron + HQ company)
Battalion(3-5 companies)
Company(3-5 platoons)should be accounted with availability per card

Where the number of units in each depends on alliance/coalition/nationality at 5/4/3 and company is a single card where availability depends on unit eliteness(superheavies have less platoons per company etc.) Then you might have:

A Pact brigade will have 3 battalions + air wing

A Russian Armoured battalion with 5 companies
A Finnish Motorised battalion with 5 companies
An Eastern Block Support battalion with 4 companies
A Pact air wing with 3 squadrons

Ending up with 17 total card slots(14+3) in this case. A full alliance deck would only have 13(9+3+1) and a full national would have 31(25+5+1). The free HQ company would be limited to jeep CVs and since every deck needs to have one, there's no reason to not have it free.
Oh, yeah, battalions need to have a specialisation.

At first I had attachment companies and platoons included but they would make no sense gameplay wise.


EDIT: Now obviously some specifications are going to have to change a bit. All heavy AA will move into support, so will RLS and artillery. Only light mortars and light AA will stay in their respective specialisations.

Recon specialisation will disappear. Recon tanks will move into armoured, recon infantry to motorised and recon vehicles to mechanised. Airborne battalion will have all the helicopters(yes yes they actually belong to everything else but gameplay consistency wins here.)

Marine specialisation is a bit of a problem, obviously it won't have planes and should probably be limited to marine maps only with naval transports. The problem is that US marines are an iconic branch that doesn't really belong in the marines and no one else has anything quite like it. So just cross it off the list and drown in american tears.

All planes will be available in the Air wing always. You can't have more than one Air wing.
The psychotic Finnish wood-elf

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1456
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 15 Feb 2017 16:04

JoonasTo wrote:Marine specialisation is a bit of a problem, obviously it won't have planes and should probably be limited to marine maps only with naval transports. The problem is that US marines are an iconic branch that doesn't really belong in the marines and no one else has anything quite like it. So just cross it off the list and drown in american tears.

That one is easy enough to solve: Hive off the USMC from the US Army and put them in game as a separate 'nation'. The USMC pretty much has the requisite equipment to function as a minor nation and a fully modelled US Army will be quite capable enough without needing to have the infantry tab carried by US Marines.

I would disagree somewhat with the broader point though, perhaps Finnish Marine forces are purely for littoral fighting but British and French Marines are quite capable of and intended for extended land deployments, supported by their own Carrier Based Aircraft (and realistically lots of LBA too). I can't speak for other nation's doctrines but I'd expect that there are others with the same extended-deployment capability.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6679
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: What would you do if Eugen hired you to remake every infantry tab from scratch?

Postby molnibalage » Wed 15 Feb 2017 16:20

JoonasTo wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:
Mako wrote:And I'd be interested in line infantry at least being bought by the platoon, with their supporting weapons included.


Actually I've wondered about bringing in all units by platoons. Tanks and mechanized infantry very rarely roll around by themselves in the type of battles that Wargame depicts. If tanks and everything were called in not singly but in groups of four, I think it would be pretty interesting.

I've actually been playing around with the idea of building your deck around that idea a bit, though not exactly, more like requiring you to adhere closer to actual OOB. Like so:

Brigade(3-5 battalions + air squadron + HQ company)
Battalion(3-5 companies)
Company(3-5 platoons)should be accounted with availability per card


I recommed to read FM 100-2-3 and this.
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/d9by7q ... ir_defense

All PACT countries in WG used batt - regiment - division system and not brigade...

As I know BUL used brigade system and HUN started to change also to brigade instead classical and standard PACT structure but never happened fully because lack of collapse of PACT.

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests