SU-24 SEAD, some love?

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wargamer1985
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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby wargamer1985 » Mon 6 Mar 2017 09:05

GARGEAN wrote:
wargamer1985 wrote:Why your feel it necessary to result to a Strawman, I fail to understand. I think with your system you are severely underestimating the importance of modern systems over simply "big" ones, this is mostly why the EF-111A get 60% ECM and most top-tier jets get 50%.

Why you're trying again to shitpost and argue about absolutely clear things? You want to say that Su-24s ECM is not undermodelled? Or that some blue planes, like EF-111A, don't have enough? What's your point besides "you are wrong! "?

I have yet to see sufficient evidence to support either that the Su-24 deserves an ECM Buff or that the EF-111A deserves the contrary. Again, I initially stated that I support an availability buff, but an ECM buff I am more reserved on until sufficient evidence surfaces to support that case. Saying "it is big" is not sufficient in this case.
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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 6 Mar 2017 09:14

I think with your system you are severely underestimating the importance of modern systems over simply "big" ones, this is mostly why the EF-111A get 60% ECM and most top-tier jets get 50%.


There're nothing new about jammers, they might be more reliable or easier to maintain but the operating principles remain the same. The older ones used tubes because they work at higher voltages, but are much less efficient.

I have yet to see sufficient evidence to support either that the Su-24 deserves an ECM Buff


The Su-24 had a built-in jammer (SPS-160 Geran). The Su-24M added a missile warning sensor and is still stuck on 20%.

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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby GARGEAN » Mon 6 Mar 2017 09:25

wargamer1985 wrote:I have yet to see sufficient evidence to support either that the Su-24 deserves an ECM Buff or that the EF-111A deserves the contrary. Again, I initially stated that I support an availability buff, but an ECM buff I am more reserved on until sufficient evidence surfaces to support that case. Saying "it is big" is not sufficient in this case.

Noone said that EF-111A should be nerfed. Su-24 has build-in jammer, chaff/flare dispercers and RWR. That alone gives it more that 20% ECM in game terms, not even talking about SEAD bonus. Will you shitpost further?

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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby nuke92 » Mon 6 Mar 2017 11:23

Sufficient evidence like what? Oscilloscope readings?
Jammers don't jam because of cavemen's block I guess...

You just need the ECM checklist.
It's that easy...
Last edited by nuke92 on Mon 6 Mar 2017 12:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 6 Mar 2017 12:09

wargamer1985 wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:
wargamer1985 wrote:Fair ECM in accordance to what? A arbitrary system, or realism?


Fair ECM according to the rules of ECM assignment that all other planes presently in the game abide to.

Which is:

+10 for RWR
+10 for chaff/flare
+10 for jammer (+10 extra for big/modern jammer)
+10 to SEAD or otherwise magical
+10 if you are an EF-111 Raven

for a total absolute maximum of 60% ECM.

Of which, base Su-24 fulfills criteria for at least 40% ECM.

Or are you implying that there should be different standards for REDFOR planes?

Why your feel it necessary to result to a Strawman, I fail to understand. I think with your system you are severely underestimating the importance of modern systems over simply "big" ones, this is mostly why the EF-111A get 60% ECM and most top-tier jets get 50%.


You're in over your head, I'm afraid.

Here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_j ... _deception

I'd like that you read the absolute basics at least, as otherwise, you're a waste of effort to reply to.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 6 Mar 2017 14:40

Just to add - when I said tubes were less efficient I was referring to energy consumption. The solution is to make larger tubes, which are usually more expensive. There are also problems with radiation, which is why the antennas face outwards. The Su-24 possibly has some sort of anti-radiation coating around the nose, where the radar(s) are located. On Soviet aircraft the contact areas are usually painted dark grey, but in this case it's white.

The earliest Su-27s had a dark grey nose, but they didn't use Sorbitsaya. There was some speculation that another jammer was fitted, called Pallad. This could only operate in the rear hemisphere or when the radar was switched off, depending on the source. Another thing is that no Sukhoi aircraft used Gardeniya apart from the Su-25T, which doesn't have a radar. I wonder how the MiG-29 deals with interference, given that it was fitted to that aircraft in series..

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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby wargamer1985 » Tue 7 Mar 2017 01:28

HrcAk47 wrote:
You're in over your head, I'm afraid.

I know, right? Asking for evidence to support a claim is completely unfounded.

nuke92 wrote:Sufficient evidence like what? Oscilloscope readings?
Jammers don't jam because of cavemen's block I guess...

You just need the ECM checklist.
It's that easy...


Sufficient evidence like resources or informative information on the capabilities of the jammer. Designation, design, performance etc.

As for the ECM checklist, there is no standardized system that I am aware of, and if we were to dwell on HrcAK47's model, most aircraft would be stuck at 40% ECM, everything from a F-4S to a Su-27PU, which is neither authentic nor is it balanced.

I will give you this, in my experience of using the Su-24 in SEAD operations I have found it curious that it lacks ECM to such an extent in comparison to other aircraft, especially when the aircraft of a similar class measure far higher on the arbitrary scale that Eugen has instilled. However, I would say that the likelihood of getting an ECM buff for the Su-24 (which, granted, is looking slim as of the current setting) will be far higher if there is sources supporting the claim that the Su-24 didn't have a trashy ECM array. Generally balanced and realistic proposals have a far more likely chance of being passed than a proposal that is either balanced or authentic.

Anyways, that is my two cents on the issue, if you so wish to ignore my advice you are absolutely free to do so, but just keep in mind that a little evidence can go a long way.
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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 7 Mar 2017 16:22

HrcAk47 wrote:+10 for RWR (check, SPO-10)
+10 for chaff/flare (check, Automat-F)
+10 for pre-85 jammers/+20 for post-85 jammers (check, Geran-F, pretty powerful but let's say pre-85)
+10 if it's a SEAD plane (which it is).

A conservative estimate puts Su-24 at 40 ECM. In Cat-C.

Currently, some planes (big ones like C-Eagle, D-Eagle, F-18, Tiffy, Rafale) have magical stats (50% ECM) that can not be justified in any way. And EF-111 Raven exists.

:lol:
You gotta be trolling.
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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby HrcAk47 » Tue 7 Mar 2017 16:38

You're more than welcome to create criteria for ECM distribution ;)

I mean, if you did, there would be no need to have this conversation.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: SU-24 SEAD, some love?

Postby Seryn » Tue 7 Mar 2017 16:59

Xeno426 wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:+10 for RWR (check, SPO-10)
+10 for chaff/flare (check, Automat-F)
+10 for pre-85 jammers/+20 for post-85 jammers (check, Geran-F, pretty powerful but let's say pre-85)
+10 if it's a SEAD plane (which it is).

A conservative estimate puts Su-24 at 40 ECM. In Cat-C.

Currently, some planes (big ones like C-Eagle, D-Eagle, F-18, Tiffy, Rafale) have magical stats (50% ECM) that can not be justified in any way. And EF-111 Raven exists.

:lol:
You gotta be trolling.


Note he only listed Blue planes. No RED planes. Not even a Yugo Fairy.

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