Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

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FrangibleCover
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 18 Mar 2017 17:54

Tiera wrote:
shnowitzer wrote:Cuz it's from the future

Last time I checked, 1995 was still in timeframe: http://areena.yle.fi/1-3625491

The game is still set in early 1992 though. The FDF Hornets are definitely from the future, it's just that we consider some time travel allowable because this is a game and not an Operational Simulation. "The FDF Hornets get better ECM because top-end fighters from the future get 50% ECM as a matter of course" is, so far as I can see, the answer to the question and all of this stuff about different ECM fits is a post-facto justification.

Not that there's anything wrong with that :) .

I am looking forward to Steel Division (hopefully) stripping out all the prototypes though.
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby Karenin » Sat 18 Mar 2017 18:22

For SD, theres the problem every WW2 shooter/game/etc has: For Axis theres a set timepoint, where protos just cease to exist (end of war obv ;) ) while GB/US/SU etc had stuff in development where you again could argument "but if the war wouldve taken just 3 days longer, it wouldve been a valid option" or "it was used in pacific theater of ww2". For SU it would be the T-44, AK47 prototypes, IS3 etc. GB its the Comet (sort of) and black prince, US has some tanks and guns that only saw action in pacific etc.

You cannot set a date and then dont use everything after. When we do this we get another "Patriot without a counterpart" incident. Its more a question of assets, does a faction get f.ex. a heavy tank? Then every faction should get the earliest possible. If thats 2009 (for NK), so be it.

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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby wargamer1985 » Sat 18 Mar 2017 18:45

FrangibleCover wrote:
Tiera wrote:
shnowitzer wrote:Cuz it's from the future

Last time I checked, 1995 was still in timeframe: http://areena.yle.fi/1-3625491

The game is still set in early 1992 though. The FDF Hornets are definitely from the future, it's just that we consider some time travel allowable because this is a game and not an Operational Simulation. "The FDF Hornets get better ECM because top-end fighters from the future get 50% ECM as a matter of course" is, so far as I can see, the answer to the question and all of this stuff about different ECM fits is a post-facto justification.

Not that there's anything wrong with that :) .

I am looking forward to Steel Division (hopefully) stripping out all the prototypes though.

The Finnish Hornets have a much greater right to be in game than some units (see Novi Avion). I defend the Finnish Hornet's existence in game, but I disagree with its given ECM.

A little off-topic, but If my memory serves me, Finland still operates the Charlie Hornets till this very day, I even recall some talk about Finnish interest in procuring the Super Hornet, but I believe that deal fell through.
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 18 Mar 2017 23:03

wargamer1985 wrote:The Finnish Hornets have a much greater right to be in game than some units (see Novi Avion). I defend the Finnish Hornet's existence in game, but I disagree with its given ECM.

I defend the Finnish Hornet's existence in game but I feel like if it's a balance handout unit the ECM it's given doesn't have to have any realistic basis because the Alternate history totally screws it up. What if Red Dragon Finland asked for their F-18s to get the best DECM money could buy while they were being delivered at a low rate in 1992? I know Real Finland didn't do that but then Real Finland didn't get their F-18s until 1995, too late for the game. Therefore the order must have been placed earlier, therefore the order was probably different, therefore the order may have included ECM systems that would justify 50% ECM fully (I don't even know what the criterion for 50% ECM is).

There is nothing wrong with the FDF Hornet, there would be nothing wrong with it if it had 40% ECM and a price reduction. It's all just gameplay once you're into the prototypes.
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby Tiera » Sun 19 Mar 2017 20:55

FrangibleCover wrote:
wargamer1985 wrote:The Finnish Hornets have a much greater right to be in game than some units (see Novi Avion). I defend the Finnish Hornet's existence in game, but I disagree with its given ECM.

I defend the Finnish Hornet's existence in game but I feel like if it's a balance handout unit the ECM it's given doesn't have to have any realistic basis because the Alternate history totally screws it up. What if Red Dragon Finland asked for their F-18s to get the best DECM money could buy while they were being delivered at a low rate in 1992? I know Real Finland didn't do that but then Real Finland didn't get their F-18s until 1995, too late for the game. Therefore the order must have been placed earlier, therefore the order was probably different, therefore the order may have included ECM systems that would justify 50% ECM fully (I don't even know what the criterion for 50% ECM is).

There is nothing wrong with the FDF Hornet, there would be nothing wrong with it if it had 40% ECM and a price reduction. It's all just gameplay once you're into the prototypes.


Personally I'd have preferred Gripens for RD Finland anyhow. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 19 Mar 2017 21:29

Gripen would definitively be a nice option.

However, AIM-9L (and a few other missiles) should get 5 HE.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby Sleksa » Mon 20 Mar 2017 02:13

FrangibleCover wrote:The game is still set in early 1992 though.


If this was the case we wouldn't see 95% of the 1991+ prototypes we see in the game. the 1992 date you quote is a fantasy number and there has never been any acknowledgement of any official timelines since the world has repeatedly gone to nuclear ww3 before 1990 if we count all the previous wargame title's campaigns on top of rd's.

FrangibleCover wrote: Real Finland didn't get their F-18s until 1995, too late for the game.


See the first reply, and it would make your attempt to define official timelines by yourself a bit more legit if you could keep them consistent.


As far as the hornet goes and as some people have previously stated as well in this thread, the hornets were C models with the jammer package on them, and the overall package was compared to other similiar aircraft with xeno. Americans dropped the idea due to several reasons, some of them stated in this thread, but also due to things like already having a massive and extremely capable sead fleet.

To me this mostly seems like a case of being upset that a export country has a thing that seems better than the manufacturer's, of which there's dozens of cases within wargame's unit roster. One could just as well demand 2-2-1-1 armor to all finnish xa's because that's what the norwegian xa's, as surely finns (and swedes) would never use inferior armor to protect their troops compared to some dingy arse export nation with more oil than kuwait and worse weather than scotland.
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For the sake of consistency I'd suggest also to campaign for Germany to get mg42 reservists (á la scandies), Crotale NG to France (not just on the la fey jette), Polish kub m4 to ussr, yugoslavian 142km lasers and 50km ground launched r-73's for ussr, and mexas leopards for germany, for a small start.
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby XanderTuron » Mon 20 Mar 2017 08:28

Sleksa wrote:For the sake of consistency I'd suggest also to campaign for Germany to get mg42 reservists (á la scandies), Crotale NG to France (not just on the la fey jette), Polish kub m4 to ussr, yugoslavian 142km lasers and 50km ground launched r-73's for ussr, and mexas leopards for germany, for a small start.


Don't forget about all of those LAV-25 variants for Canada.
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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby Pantheon » Mon 20 Mar 2017 13:07

Headlines of news:

Export countries have different requirements!

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Re: Why does the Finnish F/A-18C Have better ECM?

Postby Adarius » Mon 20 Mar 2017 16:33

For those interested in the Finnish fighter jet procurement. It is ongoing and with the usual suspects in the competition. Based on the Finnish budget restrictions we can expect Gripen-E and F/A-18E/F as the favorites unless something exceptional is offered by the other producers.

DefenseNews wrote:The Ministry of Defense (MoD) issued a request for information (RFI) to manufacturers in November 2016. The candidate aircraft offered include BAE Systems’ Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s JAS Gripen-E, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale and Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II.

The HX-FRP office plans to respond to information provided as part of the RFI by May 2017. Officials are expected to issue a follow-up request for proposals in 2018. The MoD aims to conclude the selection process in 2021.


Pantheon wrote:Headlines of news:

Export countries have different requirements!


I would love to see the Strv 122 with its 7 tonnes of extra armor included as a super heavy in the game.

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