How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

urogard
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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby urogard » Sun 23 Apr 2017 11:16

HrcAk47 wrote:
Fodder wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:
What do you mean? I think the prices are pretty much on point, bar a few outliers (KT).

As for the Finnish MiG-29, I'd like to see other MiG-29s get 1000 speed too.

Srry wat i meant to say was there are a few dlc units that are not priced correctly.

- In recon tab Mi -1 and Finland's Alouette 2 are both 35pts. but alouette has better stats over all
- The yugo j22 and su 25k are almost identical but j22 has a 3rd weapon.

Also why is the j17 and j7 asf 1000kph too?
I know they j-7 had upgrades.
Maybe all ASF and Interceptors should have 1000kph.


How much armor does a Su-25K have?

The plane tab is pretty much all over the place. Depending on which plane type you look at either you'll find plenty problems with pricing and/or availability.
Random example: go look at napalm bombers, you'll find some plane with 3 napalm bombs to be 4 per card [A 32A Lansen] and then right below that you get a plane with exact stats (speed, ecm, turn rate) with only 2 napalm bombs and it's still only 4 per card [F-86 Kyokko] (and I'm talking base availability, without any avail bonuses)

[MB-339CB] 750 km/h; 0% ECM; 6 napalm bombs => 2 per card
[F-45 Phantom II] 900 km/h; 30% ECM; 8 napalm bombs => 2 per card
[Mirage IIC] 900 km/h; 0% ECM; 6 napalm bombs => 2 per card

Logic? I think not

ATGM Plane:
NK [MiG-21PFM] 100 km/h; 0% ECM; 30% Acc 28 AP SA missiles => 2 per card
Has still not gotten fixed after over a year of telling EUG repeatedly

And that's the more mundane examples, there's far worse all over the air tab, I already did a good summary on the topic of ASFs alone, but literally every class of planes has the same problems.

That's the whole reason why mixed decks were a problem, not because mixed is OP since it can use everyone's stuff and for 1v1 ranked stuff that's good enough since you don't need 170 pts superheavies there. The problem was that there's way too many units that simply are way too cheap and EUG refusing to adjust the prices based on standardized pricing formulas and instead going for that bovine flavour.

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 23 Apr 2017 13:12

Well, the main question was if there are pricing issues with DLC nations, and I see no obvious ones.

There's a few technical issues with Yugo air tab, tho, but they are minor.

All J-22 Oraos should be 900 speed
Base J-22 (iron bombs) should be 20 ECM
All Supergalebs should be 750 speed
Base N-62 (napalm) should be 20 ECM

and some issues with guns, etc...
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby Fodder » Sun 23 Apr 2017 16:57

FrangibleCover wrote:

urogard wrote:


Yes no pricing problem, just inconsistency.
In the Recon Tab Alouette 2 and the Mi 1 has the exact same stats but Alouette 2 has 135+ autonomy, 400+ fuel and 5+ speed.
Reduce mi-1 to 30pts
Last edited by Fodder on Wed 10 Jan 2018 18:45, edited 16 times in total.

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby urogard » Sun 23 Apr 2017 17:50

HrcAk47 wrote:Well, the main question was if there are pricing issues with DLC nations, and I see no obvious ones.

That one I agree with, there's no DLC unit that has a problematic price on its own.

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby RoadkillRodger » Sun 23 Apr 2017 23:20

urogard wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Well, the main question was if there are pricing issues with DLC nations, and I see no obvious ones.

That one I agree with, there's no DLC unit that has a problematic price on its own.


KT begs to differ. It's a single unit, but it's quite an outlier when you look at how it performs relative to 20 point transports (e.g. Btr 80A).

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby urogard » Mon 24 Apr 2017 00:18

RoadkillRodger wrote:
urogard wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:Well, the main question was if there are pricing issues with DLC nations, and I see no obvious ones.

That one I agree with, there's no DLC unit that has a problematic price on its own.


KT begs to differ. It's a single unit, but it's quite an outlier when you look at how it performs relative to 20 point transports (e.g. Btr 80A).

See the KT is tricky, sure its gun is way overperforming for 15 pts. But it's only 1 front armor, meaning it gets full damage from anything and even the weakest RPGs will one shot it. Autocannons will deal full damage to it and any hit from a HEAT or KE shell means it's dead.

And since the recent transports armor rebalance, you got plenty for 15 point vehicles with 3 front armor. Meeting something like that in the forest means the KT deals 4.5 dmg per hit (needs 3 hits to kill) but gets one shotted by any autocannon with 1,750m range and 2 AP, which is like three quarters of all NATO autocannons.

Find me a 20 point transport with 1 front armor and I will immediately agree with you to make KT 20 points as well.
But until then, it's a simple fact that 2 front armor is simply 2-3 times better than 1 front armor, no matter how well some gun might perform at longer ranges, yeah sure if you meet in open battle, that KT beats anything that's not a 50% acc autocannon. It's also a fact that most IFVs will shoot at stuff at less than 350m range in forest.

In summary:
At 15 pts it overperforms in open field, but is mediocre in forests.
At 20 pts it would suck everywhere because any other transport for 20 pts is way better both at close and long ranges.
Conclusion:
It's good enough for 20 pts price bracket by any standard of comparison.

Any chance we can get all the KVPT armed transports with 1 front armor corrected down to 10 points though?
Norwegians got an autocannon transport for 10 pts, so why make worthless KVPT with 10% accuracy cost 15 then ...

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 24 Apr 2017 00:46

urogard wrote:
RoadkillRodger wrote:KT begs to differ. It's a single unit, but it's quite an outlier when you look at how it performs relative to 20 point transports (e.g. Btr 80A).

See the KT is tricky, sure its gun is way overperforming for 15 pts. But it's only 1 front armor, meaning it gets full damage from anything and even the weakest RPGs will one shot it. Autocannons will deal full damage to it and any hit from a HEAT or KE shell means it's dead.

Okay then, how about this?

The XA-185 KT and the 2FAV Norwegian XA-186 have exactly the same exterior model. The 186 has an intro date of 1988 so the uparmouring is well within timeframe and there's more than enough prototype time for the Finns to figure out how to do it if the 186 is a Norwegian upgrade. The KT is a prototype so all of the rules go out of the window. Change the name to XA-186KT and switch out the chassis stats as appropriate (the KT can keep its 10kmh slower top speed, we're putting quite a lot of weight on the chassis). Now it's a 20 point unit, indeed it's probably still better than the BTR-80A. Not +5 points better, I don't think, but better.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby RoadkillRodger » Mon 24 Apr 2017 07:16

FrangibleCover wrote:
urogard wrote:See the KT is tricky, sure its gun is way overperforming for 15 pts. But it's only 1 front armor, meaning it gets full damage from anything and even the weakest RPGs will one shot it. Autocannons will deal full damage to it and any hit from a HEAT or KE shell means it's dead.

Okay then, how about this?

Change the name to XA-186KT and switch out the chassis stats as appropriate (the KT can keep its 10kmh slower top speed, we're putting quite a lot of weight on the chassis). Now it's a 20 point unit, indeed it's probably still better than the BTR-80A. Not +5 points better, I don't think, but better.


That would present a bigger issue as it would no longer be vulnerable to units like the pt76, amx RC, et al.

The KT is already performing at the level of a btr 80A. It may not have 2AV, but it gets a better gun, better infantry, and higher suppression output thanks to the secondary mg.
I didn't bring it up earlier because lol, but bear in mind that the KT is currently at the same price point as a 1 AV kpvt-armed transport.

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby Mike » Mon 24 Apr 2017 07:44

The Bushmaster II has the same RoF as the Bushmaster I in real life, but for someone reason, it's very different in game.
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Courtesy of KattiValk

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Re: How to have more Balance in Red Dragon game ? if there is a new "Balace Patch" ever

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 24 Apr 2017 08:51

RoadkillRodger wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:
urogard wrote:See the KT is tricky, sure its gun is way overperforming for 15 pts. But it's only 1 front armor, meaning it gets full damage from anything and even the weakest RPGs will one shot it. Autocannons will deal full damage to it and any hit from a HEAT or KE shell means it's dead.

Okay then, how about this?

Change the name to XA-186KT and switch out the chassis stats as appropriate (the KT can keep its 10kmh slower top speed, we're putting quite a lot of weight on the chassis). Now it's a 20 point unit, indeed it's probably still better than the BTR-80A. Not +5 points better, I don't think, but better.

That would present a bigger issue as it would no longer be vulnerable to units like the pt76, amx RC, et al.

The KT is already performing at the level of a btr 80A. It may not have 2AV, but it gets a better gun, better infantry, and higher suppression output thanks to the secondary mg.
I didn't bring it up earlier because lol, but bear in mind that the KT is currently at the same price point as a 1 AV kpvt-armed transport.

Okay, if 20 points isn't enough then put it to 25 points. If that's not enough, change it to 30 points. The reasoning behind the buff is to give it enough armour to allow it to be heavily nerfed in price, I'm not suggesting that we buff it and leave it at 15 points.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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