Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

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another505
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Wed 12 Jul 2017 11:09

FrangibleCover wrote:The obvious NATO fixed AA emplacement, if we are to have a generic one, is the Oerlikon 35mm. Damn near everyone operated those things. They're already statted up in game on the Gepard, Guntank and Marksman.

I'm not sure what the equivalent Pact system is though, the only two things I'm coming up with off the top of my head are the ZU-23-2, which isn't really good enough and the S-60, which is a static ZSU-57-2 and definitely not good enough.



you can give it the ones with strela3 attached on the zsu-23-2
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby damoj » Wed 12 Jul 2017 17:12

thelizardofdoom wrote:The other option is give it a manpad. I still don't see why making whatever weapon it is very short ranged, unable to shoot at planes and quite strong is undesirable.


I would not mind seeing Redeyes and Strela-2s/3s with very short range and decent accuracy. Could buff HE if its helo-only.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 12 Jul 2017 22:53

This thread of mine has morphed into so many different things.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby R3d Sh4mbala » Mon 17 Jul 2017 06:15

Fade2Gray wrote:This thread of mine has morphed into so many different things.

Almost like MILINT virus mutated it. :lol:

Anything else on fire rates of Russian artillery?

From what I have seen, Eugen will not allow Tulypan 240mm Mortar because [engine limitations.]

So how do we adjust rates of fire.

I mean Russians do have ram/loading assistance mechanisms; while the West up to a certain time was manual loading. :roll:

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby R3d Sh4mbala » Mon 17 Jul 2017 06:30

chykka wrote:I always thought firing without Correction in RD was a little easier than previous games. So it made counter fire more punishing, and you would have to move right after firing So it made safe platforms like British As90 dwarf older pieces that could put more sustained fire with more units as they could get countered harder unless you baby sat them. As Que'd orders could still give enough time to be countered by other artillery. So it just made a ton of Artillery very rare to see on the battlefield. (maybe excluding most mortars are pretty usable.)

I like when correction is used, and obviously information is key where to fire. However I havn't played with the lance much, but when you can guess where CV's are and get lucky it's kinda disgusting, Although Atacams and Lance do have a fair bit of aim time.

Problem with Helo rush is how much information it can give you early, if he tries to ground rush your spawn. Unless you drive way around the map and the helo rusher didn't spread out much like on some maps you will likely see him trying too push deep, so you can try to defend your spawn. The guy being helo rushed pretty much has no choice but to buy AA unless his starting force can deal with it, which is why planes and Recon Helo's are your primary early warning but still give very little time to postition your force after a move fast command. With helo's being the most universal for spotting ground as well. One thing that kinda compounds it is how Helos don't get as many LoS blocks so even lower optic helicopters they will spot a Fob from very far away. Than the helo rusher even if he didn't invest everything in helicopters he will usually have better idea of where your troops are and air units will have mobility advantage but at least easier to spot unless he's unloading infantry pretty far forward. That's why Cv's make it lot harder to defend as your first deployment usually is going to the front while your Command is supposed to sit at the base spawn which is not usually very defended as your planned front line.

I always thought base building or any kind of progression like the phase system, or over overpricing helicopters. Would alleviate the shock and cheese factor of helicopter spam at deployment. Side spawns would help a lot, and not all maps have them. And in Conquest if the Deployment Spawn was 0 points it would pretty much force a much more mobile game. I have lost to helo rush on Fulda but I probably opened with way more commands than I should of and tried to play both sides and the middle zone. Yet if I kept my units closer and Covered less Commands maybe I could of still played the side spawns and been safe.


I think EEs correction system is much more user friendly, and gives risk/reward/avoidance capability. Blind Firing was just going to waste ammo and just maybe stun/random kill/morale route something. But if a recon or other unit spotted a target, the shots would become more and more accurate. This worked with the tube and mortar arty; but with MLRS it was OP. It was the every narrowing circle of death. ALB simplified correction; but that made some units with correction one shot deletion buttons. RD is kind of weird because correction is also adjusted by range dispersion. So some arty and MLRS are more lethal when brought up to their minimum ranges. I like EEs correction for arty and its mechanics.

Helo Rushing though ERRRR. Its a high risk/reward strategy. On some maps it can be a no risk all reward strategy. I think RD with its deep flanks with no strategic importance [side spawn/zone] has encouraged this particular problem. If I remember some information an earlier build had helos flying on the exact edge if not off edge of map, to swing around and attack an opponent from the flank or rear. One patch had to add a border specifically for helicopters to limit them from the edge. Although they didn't do that with aircraft sadly.

Some factions do have cheap and lethal responses to helicopter threats.
My preference is to leave at minimum 2 manpads in base. And some cheap vehicle options.
Maybe the question should be the actual accuracy/lethality of low tier MANPADS in RD.
Because from my experiences versus Bluefor, there are so many high accuracy Manpads to even consider using Helicopters is near suicide. :shock: Redfor oddly enough has all the weird gaps in counter helo rush.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Mon 17 Jul 2017 10:01

R3d Sh4mbala wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:This thread of mine has morphed into so many different things.

Almost like MILINT virus mutated it. :lol:

Anything else on fire rates of Russian artillery?

From what I have seen, Eugen will not allow Tulypan 240mm Mortar because [engine limitations.]

So how do we adjust rates of fire.

I mean Russians do have ram/loading assistance mechanisms; while the West up to a certain time was manual loading. :roll:

Usa is still using manual loading for spg
The paladin rof buff came out of nowhere

Ussr malka and pion has an assisted loader
Meanwhile m110 as far as i see in youtube vids are manual
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby chykka » Mon 17 Jul 2017 16:44

a few cheap man pads wont stop a full on helo rush, unless they fly over your army which also has AA/ Autocannons; I don't want to use Star craft as example. However any one who's played in 2010 probably knows what void ray spam was and a sizable force of them was silly if you don't harrass first, or rushing banshees is maybe a better example, and Mutas. None of these are instant though, and players do have time to prep for them even if they rush on ground if they scout the starbase/ spire.

You need the prerequisite tech too get out air units. Even if that requisite is capturing a forward position so be it, as long as you can't just start with only helicopter and need nothing else. (maybe if you only started with lightly armed reco helos it would be different) If there was a hedge to getting out air units at the start it would make more sense to deploy ground units to defend yourself and get access to the map. Which could have 'resources' much like I imagined if the zones gave different kinds of requisition points for different kinds of units.

In EE most transport helicopters were unarmed, aside from the exception of the Hind, Mil 8 and 17, Lynx AH.7. However it still has raining men that was removed in Alb.

The big problem facing it is just the way deployment works, as you have no idea what they are deploying. So you just deploy a balanced force, however the issue lies in them using a not so balanced force to try to shock you and win quickly which you can only prepare so much without being paranoid or gimping other parts of your deployment as AA and Air to Air planes subtract from your ground force. Making it kinda like a card game full of gambles and bluffs.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 18 Jul 2017 00:45

R3d Sh4mbala wrote:Almost like MILINT virus mutated it. :lol:

No no no NO...

that would be the Paradox Steel Division forums.

damoj wrote:
thelizardofdoom wrote:The other option is give it a manpad. I still don't see why making whatever weapon it is very short ranged, unable to shoot at planes and quite strong is undesirable.


I would not mind seeing Redeyes and Strela-2s/3s with very short range and decent accuracy. Could buff HE if its helo-only.

While I understand gameplay>realism, I kinda cringe every time I see someone suggesting a buff to MANPADs. So many of them are already stupid strong in comparison to how they are in RealLife(tm). Stingers with just as much if not more HE than Sidewinders makes me laugh.
another505 wrote:Usa is still using manual loading for spg
The paladin rof buff came out of nowhere

If only the Crusader program hadn't been such a rolling mess, we would have moved on from that.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby damoj » Tue 18 Jul 2017 01:36

Fade2Gray wrote:While I understand gameplay>realism, I kinda cringe every time I see someone suggesting a buff to MANPADs. So many of them are already stupid strong in comparison to how they are in RealLife(tm). Stingers with just as much if not more HE than Sidewinders makes me laugh.


Okay, MANPAD teams to get +50% ammo and ROF buff.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Tue 18 Jul 2017 04:37

Fade2Gray wrote:
damoj wrote:
thelizardofdoom wrote:The other option is give it a manpad. I still don't see why making whatever weapon it is very short ranged, unable to shoot at planes and quite strong is undesirable.


I would not mind seeing Redeyes and Strela-2s/3s with very short range and decent accuracy. Could buff HE if its helo-only.

While I understand gameplay>realism, I kinda cringe every time I see someone suggesting a buff to MANPADs. So many of them are already stupid strong in comparison to how they are in RealLife(tm). Stingers with just as much if not more HE than Sidewinders makes me laugh.
another505 wrote:Usa is still using manual loading for spg
The paladin rof buff came out of nowhere

If only the Crusader program hadn't been such a rolling mess, we would have moved on from that.



manpads are good, heck, if im in charge, i would nerf all manpads(inf ones') range by 1 increment but buff their avail and price generously. they should be more available than AAA.


Honestly, what is so hard to add an autoloader in a spg when it has been done for decades
iirc, some nation added it in the m109
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