Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

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Fade2Gray
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 2 Jul 2017 16:45

FrangibleCover wrote:I think the overall concept is good but you've got too many clicks. One commo rose for ammunition type, one commo rose for mission type, set the position and go. Ammo type could be expanded to HE point/HE airburst/Smoke/Cluster/Napalm and whatever else comes out of the end of an artillery piece without increasing the difficulty too much, especially if you can set the central 'default' round in the settings. I feel like missions that are highly complex and effective are probably a bad plan; circle of varied size, line of varied length and point are probably good enough. Maybe expand them to short-duration and long-duration options on the left and right hand sides of the rose but let's not get too Combat Mission with it, that many clicks are simply not practical for an RTS.

Yeah, the "too many clicks" bit I thought about, but that's why I think if there's a default bulls eye for all selections (say HE, pinpoint, immediate, 5 rounds for example) it would help speed up the process. Ammo type and mission mission are a must, though I think having a timer selection that includes "on command" is highly desirable as well.

R3d Sh4mbala wrote:5HE 120mm mortar kills and stuns, but 6HE 122mm howizter does squat.

That is mostly because mortars are insanely accurate and deliver their firepower with great precision.

nande wrote:would rather have an improved game than an improved mechanic tbh

Naturally, I'd love to have the SDN front line system and various other improvements that SDN added worked into Wargame as well, but I think improved artillery mechanics would help out a lot for the goal of a better game.

SmallWhaler wrote:A simple improvement I would like to see is the map or even the tactical layer showing the starting point of enemy artillery, so it is not a game of who has the best micro and thus the time to look "by eye". Ideally the unit would appear (but not identified) when shooting.

Also : the longest the units has stayed in position, the more accurate it is, so it is a real balance between shooting more and relocating, rather than a non-brainer micro shoot / relocate / shoot / relocate.

On your first point, I actually want a more realistic way of handling incoming rounds being spotted. Just because someone shots at you, even if it is with tracer rounds, doesn't mean you automatically know exactly where you are getting shot at from. If it was up to me, incoming rounds would only be spotted when they are about half way to target at first, and depending on veterancy, could be spotter sooner the better the victims are. That being said, its been suggested on these forums before that it would be cool if you could "slave" some artillery to recon units, say those with exceptional optics, that could give counter battery fire missions.

Your second point sounds pretty interesting, I like it.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby nande » Sun 2 Jul 2017 17:07

Fade2Gray wrote:I'd love to have the SDN front line system and various other improvements that SDN added worked into Wargame
care to explain how they'd make it a better game, then? Rather than a slightly superior attempt at reenactment.
SD's already shown where such realism-focused mechanical improvements lead.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 2 Jul 2017 17:29

nande wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:I'd love to have the SDN front line system and various other improvements that SDN added worked into Wargame
care to explain how they'd make it a better game, then? Rather than a slightly superior attempt at reenactment.
SD's already shown where such realism-focused mechanical improvements lead.

How is the front line system "realism focused" if I might ask?
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby nande » Sun 2 Jul 2017 18:07

Fade2Gray wrote:How is the front line system "realism focused" if I might ask?
well it removes CVs and arbitrary zones, both of which were commonly seen as being game-y. Combined with many other changes, it's resulted in a game that many don't consider fun, and price changes alone cannot fix.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby thelizardofdoom » Sun 2 Jul 2017 19:53

nande wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:How is the front line system "realism focused" if I might ask?
well it removes CVs and arbitrary zones, both of which were commonly seen as being game-y. Combined with many other changes, it's resulted in a game that many don't consider fun, and price changes alone cannot fix.


I agree with Nande. Getting rid of CVs would stop helo rush bit it has a lot of bad things as well. Like side spawns aren't a thing, no way to ambush,infiltrations are auto spotted. And the bizarre situation where you push the enemy all the way back to their spawn and they are still buying units from that place.

The frontline concept was cool and I like the idea, but it just has to many negatives in it's current institution.

OT: get rid of napalm and cluster. That would be a big improvement. They are the most gimmicky units in the game. And with their exit a better argument can be made for making regular artful better.

To the advance commands idea, have 3 seperate buttons. One would be a regular fire(what we have now), smoke, and then the 3rd would be the advanced fire with all the choices.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 3 Jul 2017 02:09

thelizardofdoom wrote:
nande wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:How is the front line system "realism focused" if I might ask?
well it removes CVs and arbitrary zones, both of which were commonly seen as being game-y. Combined with many other changes, it's resulted in a game that many don't consider fun, and price changes alone cannot fix.


I agree with Nande. Getting rid of CVs would stop helo rush bit it has a lot of bad things as well. Like side spawns aren't a thing, no way to ambush,infiltrations are auto spotted. And the bizarre situation where you push the enemy all the way back to their spawn and they are still buying units from that place.

You can still sneak in, its just that it is with certain units only now. Ambushes, as such, as still possible, though mostly in a more limited way. That being said, I'm with you in that I don't really care how you can tell where the enemy is pushing at a glance for the most part. It does take away from the "fog of war" a lot.

Totally shutting down the enemy being able to call in reinforcements though was pretty lame IMO. Also, ironically I see SDN as adding in plenty of gamey stuff as well, like command units. Just because some "special" (like retard butterbar) dude is within X meters I can shoot better now? Then he moves 1 meter away and suddenly I can't shoot as good as before... mmmkay.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Razzmann » Mon 3 Jul 2017 08:07

I don't like most - if not all - of the new mechanics introduced or changed in SD.

Re frontline:

In the 50ish hours I played the game not once did I experience a unit sneaking behind frontlines and doing anything meaningful. The closest thing to that was a Greyhound fastmoving down the middle road...

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Mon 3 Jul 2017 08:14

Re: about cv

I am mixed about it. At one hand CV sniping is extremely annoying, helo rushes rely on the cv mechanic to win, and i still find it dumb of placing a cv in enemy spawn could prevent enemy getting reinforcement, or somehow, you can get reinforcement behind enemy lines.
Or sometimes, the enemy has a little foothold for its cv, neutralizing yours, and you just can't remove it.


I like the concept of the frontline since it allows different strategy and incentive to attack somewhere else then the town or whatever.

I think both mechanic needs an improvement

Incentive for sneaking in frontline mechanic.

Incentive to attack somewhere else than the sector and CV sniping and helo rushing need to be way less effective
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Mike » Wed 5 Jul 2017 16:14

You could make it so CVs are only needed to capture and contest a sector, not hold one. Park the CV for x amount of seconds to cap, drive away to capture the next zone. Make it so hovering helicopters can cap and reduce avalibility of CVs for the change in mechanics.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby throwaway » Wed 5 Jul 2017 16:49

Mike wrote:You could make it so CVs are only needed to capture and contest a sector, not hold one. Park the CV for x amount of seconds to cap, drive away to capture the next zone. Make it so hovering helicopters can cap and reduce avalibility of CVs for the change in mechanics.


It seems to me like you're trying to remove CV sniping. But CV sniping is a good thing. It forces you to form a secure front, watch and ideally control potential ingress points for enemy infantry. When people complain about CV sniping and in the next sentence praise the frontline mechanic for forcing you to play the entire map, it's a bit funny because if they did the latter in WRD they wouldn't be troubled by the former. I don't think the lack of sneaking in SD is entirely due to the absence of CVs, part of it is also that invisifire got killed and infantry RPGs are so much worse, part of it is the smaller maps, but the lack of CVs is doing its part too.

CVs also provide a comeback mechanic as nande loves to say - when in conquest one guy wins the opening engagement, he has to buy expensive CVs and base defenses to start ticking, whereas the loser can buy units to try and come back. If you have 500pts army and the other guy has 1000pts, it would be very hard to come back if the game is all tanks - since when you get to 1000 the other guy will have 1500 and so on. Comebacks in WRD are possible because of CVs, and because we have so many unit types that even if the other guy has 300pts of tanks and 200pts of AA and 300pts of inf and you have very little, you can still find a unit category he is weak at and try to match him only there.

We could use better map design so there aren't zones where you can countercap at only one place and thus keep getting blind shelled (like punjing bad spawn pushing good 2pter), and maybe less giant contiguous spawn-to-spawn forests that are impossible to ward from someone willing to walk infantry 15m long for a CV snipe (tropic thunder, maybe mud fight), but fundamentally CV sniping is a good thing.

another505 wrote:Re: about cv

I am mixed about it. At one hand CV sniping is extremely annoying, helo rushes rely on the cv mechanic to win, and i still find it dumb of placing a cv in enemy spawn could prevent enemy getting reinforcement, or somehow, you can get reinforcement behind enemy lines.


If you removed CVs and got helorushed by a player of your own skill level, you've still lost. You army is dead - mi-25 can kill even superheavies with no AA present - the other guy has the freedom to take all important positions with his infantry. You won't lose as often against noobs, sure, but even now the solution against a noob potentially helorushing is to buy 500pts of AA and then if he decides to play ground, rely on skill to win.

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