Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

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another505
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Wed 5 Jul 2017 17:51

throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:Re: about cv

I am mixed about it. At one hand CV sniping is extremely annoying, helo rushes rely on the cv mechanic to win, and i still find it dumb of placing a cv in enemy spawn could prevent enemy getting reinforcement, or somehow, you can get reinforcement behind enemy lines.


If you removed CVs and got helorushed by a player of your own skill level, you've still lost. You army is dead - mi-25 can kill even superheavies with no AA present - the other guy has the freedom to take all important positions with his infantry. You won't lose as often against noobs, sure, but even now the solution against a noob potentially helorushing is to buy 500pts of AA and then if he decides to play ground, rely on skill to win.

As far i've seen, usually helo runs out of rockets, bullets and missiles by the time they get there.
We can also introduce a 10 second invincibility for new spawned units. There are precedents for strategy games.
The other guy usually don't care about taking important position with his infantry , probably because the strategy prioritize going all in in killing CV.

I dont see how taking helicopters out of opening is right from your video, its an overkill to solve a problem. Helo individually its no problem and actually weak since there is barely any mechanic for it. It also kills a method of opening and playstyle for people who uses helo opening to drop in towns.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby throwaway » Wed 5 Jul 2017 19:09

another505 wrote:As far i've seen, usually helo runs out of rockets, bullets and missiles by the time they get there.[..]
The other guy usually don't care about taking important position with his infantry , probably because the strategy prioritize going all in in killing CV.

We're talking about a hypothetical future where CVs get removed to neuter helorush. In that case, the rusher will care about taking important positions with his infantry, and he will kill your entire opener, so little will have been solved.

another505 wrote:I dont see how taking helicopters out of opening is right from your video, its an overkill to solve a problem. Helo individually its no problem and actually weak since there is barely any mechanic for it. It also kills a method of opening and playstyle for people who uses helo opening to drop in towns.

Was this also directed at me? I don't know what video you're referencing and certainly dont want helos removed from openers.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Holy_crap » Wed 5 Jul 2017 23:36

throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:As far i've seen, usually helo runs out of rockets, bullets and missiles by the time they get there.[..]
The other guy usually don't care about taking important position with his infantry , probably because the strategy prioritize going all in in killing CV.

We're talking about a hypothetical future where CVs get removed to neuter helorush. In that case, the rusher will care about taking important positions with his infantry, and he will kill your entire opener, so little will have been solved.

another505 wrote:I dont see how taking helicopters out of opening is right from your video, its an overkill to solve a problem. Helo individually its no problem and actually weak since there is barely any mechanic for it. It also kills a method of opening and playstyle for people who uses helo opening to drop in towns.

Was this also directed at me? I don't know what video you're referencing and certainly dont want helos removed from openers.

From my experience as a helo rusher, I'll say that your whole helo lineup is designed to get past the opener with speed and enough hp to easily off the enemy CV. SEAD, Hinds, and aircraft are all used to that your helos can safely bypass the other guy's main fighting force.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby another505 » Thu 6 Jul 2017 04:21

throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:As far i've seen, usually helo runs out of rockets, bullets and missiles by the time they get there.[..]
The other guy usually don't care about taking important position with his infantry , probably because the strategy prioritize going all in in killing CV.

We're talking about a hypothetical future where CVs get removed to neuter helorush. In that case, the rusher will care about taking important positions with his infantry, and he will kill your entire opener, so little will have been solved.


Im not sure the rusher has enough pts to completely kill your opening and also take important position with helo

A2A helo being cheaper and move avail. in spec. will help i think. The being rushed could afford a2a helo without committing too many pts, and the helorusher has to spend pts to buy a2a helo to counter it means less pts on a2g helo.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby throwaway » Thu 6 Jul 2017 09:55

another505 wrote:Im not sure the rusher has enough pts to completely kill your opening and also take important position with helo

A2A helo being cheaper and move avail. in spec. will help i think. The being rushed could afford a2a helo without committing too many pts, and the helorusher has to spend pts to buy a2a helo to counter it means less pts on a2g helo.

Currently a good response to a rush that flies over and to your CV is to fastmove your ground forces into the enemy spawn. A good rush on the other hand buys ground forces after the opener, not planes, so the spawn can be held. These ground forces can be placed in your base, but they can also be placed at the midpoint, makes little difference if you intend to use the helos to kill the enemy opener. Plus the guy who got his opener wiped can't exactly blindly charge mid to redo the initial territory seize with a swarm of helos flying around, even if half of them are out of ammo.

I have asked for cheaper AA helos across the board but FLX didn't seem interested. Most AA helos are pretty good as-is so I can see why he didn't bite, but I think even normal helodrops are currently a bit too safe in zones where wheeled AA arrives late.

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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby chykka » Thu 6 Jul 2017 11:07

I always thought firing without Correction in RD was a little easier than previous games. So it made counter fire more punishing, and you would have to move right after firing So it made safe platforms like British As90 dwarf older pieces that could put more sustained fire with more units as they could get countered harder unless you baby sat them. As Que'd orders could still give enough time to be countered by other artillery. So it just made a ton of Artillery very rare to see on the battlefield. (maybe excluding most mortars are pretty usable.)

I like when correction is used, and obviously information is key where to fire. However I havn't played with the lance much, but when you can guess where CV's are and get lucky it's kinda disgusting, Although Atacams and Lance do have a fair bit of aim time.

Problem with Helo rush is how much information it can give you early, if he tries to ground rush your spawn. Unless you drive way around the map and the helo rusher didn't spread out much like on some maps you will likely see him trying too push deep, so you can try to defend your spawn. The guy being helo rushed pretty much has no choice but to buy AA unless his starting force can deal with it, which is why planes and Recon Helo's are your primary early warning but still give very little time to postition your force after a move fast command. With helo's being the most universal for spotting ground as well. One thing that kinda compounds it is how Helos don't get as many LoS blocks so even lower optic helicopters they will spot a Fob from very far away. Than the helo rusher even if he didn't invest everything in helicopters he will usually have better idea of where your troops are and air units will have mobility advantage but at least easier to spot unless he's unloading infantry pretty far forward. That's why Cv's make it lot harder to defend as your first deployment usually is going to the front while your Command is supposed to sit at the base spawn which is not usually very defended as your planned front line.

I always thought base building or any kind of progression like the phase system, or over overpricing helicopters. Would alleviate the shock and cheese factor of helicopter spam at deployment. Side spawns would help a lot, and not all maps have them. And in Conquest if the Deployment Spawn was 0 points it would pretty much force a much more mobile game. I have lost to helo rush on Fulda but I probably opened with way more commands than I should of and tried to play both sides and the middle zone. Yet if I kept my units closer and Covered less Commands maybe I could of still played the side spawns and been safe.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby thelizardofdoom » Fri 7 Jul 2017 09:29

Good job. You have convinced me that one should not be able to uncap a spawn and therefore the SD frontline works well in that way. Regardless there is less game changing ways to do this.

First off, starting spawns should not need a CV and should not be able to be contested. Secondly give FOBs a high end autocannon AA that can't shoot at planes.

And thus magically, the helo rush problem is solved.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Gen3ralAustria » Fri 7 Jul 2017 15:45

Helo rush in itself is an option available for solving a lot of tactical problems, especially in the beginning.
From what I have seen so far (mostly in the area o 4v4 and 10v10) a helo rush in the beginning phase is:
#1 either a good diversionary tactic, diverting enemy forces to counter this threat and (possibly) secure territory with other troops
or #2 for a fast land grab to secure this line for stronger reinforcements (mostly armored and/or mechanzied troops), mostly in combination with infantry in the first wave alongside the afore mentioned helicopters.

For mid to end it is mostly just a diversion to occupy a lot of enemy forces as possible on one side and create gaps to punch though. Or (if the enemy is not watching enough) a small landing party can sneak on the flanks or behind enemy lines.

The idea is not bad, but carries a lot of risk with it. For myself, since ALB I have when starting a small AA component to deal with this threat and if too much at least weaken it. Most of the time helo rushes fail because they are either not coordinated well enough or just a change into fortified positions and doomed.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby thelizardofdoom » Sat 8 Jul 2017 04:17

[quote="Gen3ralAustria"][/quote]

A helo rush is when a person starts the game by attempting to kill the start zone CV with helicopters. It is not whatever you just tried to say. And the rest of that was complete fiction. A "small contingent" of AA should always be present, not just for helo rushing. And that is why a helo rush is effective, because it requires and immense amount of AA to destroy. If a "small contingent of AA" is dealing with a helo rush, then you are not actually encountering a helo rush.
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Re: Thoughts on artillery mechanics and how to improve them

Postby Gen3ralAustria » Sat 8 Jul 2017 13:29

thelizardofdoom wrote:
Gen3ralAustria wrote:


A helo rush is when a person starts the game by attempting to kill the start zone CV with helicopters. It is not whatever you just tried to say. And the rest of that was complete fiction. A "small contingent" of AA should always be present, not just for helo rushing. And that is why a helo rush is effective, because it requires and immense amount of AA to destroy. If a "small contingent of AA" is dealing with a helo rush, then you are not actually encountering a helo rush.


I meant it on a broader way of interpretation. You narrowed it down to the small.
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