Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

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Fade2Gray
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Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 18 Jul 2017 00:50

As much as the Frontline system interests me, I think everyone agrees that in its current form in Steel Division is pretty much kills sneaky shenanigans. That being said, I think it can still be the best way to improve upon conquest, but how to keep it without killing sneaky tactics?

Well, in Wargame we have CVs for capping zones, how about making CVs the only way to push the front line? This way the vast majority of your units are free to try to sneak around, and you can have CVs that do something meaningful without the gamey stat buffs that they give out currently.
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby throwaway » Tue 18 Jul 2017 08:26

Sounds like a cool idea at a glance

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby integ3r » Tue 18 Jul 2017 08:46

It's a little hard to predict how it would play out..

For example, with zones, the combat is focused, without zones, the combat is spread. Which can be good because it encourages fighting over more of the map, but in the end it sort of makes sneaky flanking impossible because the game heavily encourages the creation of a "frontline" and spreading troops out over this frontline. It also means things will just be too thinly spread to encourage the use of combined arms.

It might be a fun experiment.. or even its own mode but I wouldn't throw out the concept of zones.

I would gladly throw out the concept of destruction. If you have to, just add delicious floating numbers to conquest. Be honest, that's why people still play destruction.
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby another505 » Tue 18 Jul 2017 08:56

Need to make cv a lot cheaper , avail and log needs to have more spots and cheaper AP
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby throwaway » Tue 18 Jul 2017 09:51

another505 wrote:Need to make cv a lot cheaper , avail and log needs to have more spots and cheaper AP

If you look at a clown mod where CVs are 30pts, there's no point to sneaking to kill a CV when your sneaky unit costs as much as the CV, and buying or losing a CV has no effect on the tempo of the game. The old 300pt CVs were ridiculous but they're perfect at the moment, affordable but not throwaway.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby integ3r » Tue 18 Jul 2017 09:54

throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:Need to make cv a lot cheaper , avail and log needs to have more spots and cheaper AP

If you look at a clown mod where CVs are 30pts, there's no point to sneaking to kill a CV when your sneaky unit costs as much as the CV, and buying or losing a CV has no effect on the tempo of the game. The old 300pt CVs were ridiculous but they're perfect at the moment, affordable but not throwaway.

Agreed. Expensive CVs are a necessary anti-slippery slope mechanic.

When you win fights on the ground, you buy a CV, this sets you back 100 points while the opponent has to spend those 100 points on units to attack. This stops the game from just being whoever wins any engagement starts winning even more because he still has his units and conquest points keep trickling in.
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Razzmann » Tue 18 Jul 2017 10:45

My 2 cents:

What the frontline in itself currently does wrong, without the context of sectors in WG:
- the frontline pretty much eliminates sneaking (like you said)
- the frontline gives you too much information about where the enemy has units and where not (can elaborate if necessary)

Compared to sectors:
Being able the push "anywhere" is pretty much an illusion in SD, and would be even more so in WG; certain areas like towns and certain bushes are more valuable than the 5% of frontline at the edge of the map where in every match both players only send a single unit. In WG that becomes even more apparent with ATGM infantry and other long range units.

Sectors make asymmetric maps less asymmetric. The frontline always cuts the map in half. Now if you have a side that hass less towns in its half or maybe you can't even get to your own town before the enemy can, well good luck. With sectors on the other hand you can always slightly move them around, to - as much as possible, it is never gonna be perfect - balance the map better. Of course this would not be a problem if symmetric maps existed, at least for ranked.

CVs are comeback mechanic. People hate CV sniping, but they are also a form of coming back. With the frontline, if you win the initial push, get 51+% of the map, you can dig yourself in and get into a defensive position and your opponent with less units on the field will have to push. That makes the whole initial push even more important than in WG and can easily be game deciding, depending of how one sided it ends. In Wargame, if you win the opening push, to win, you have to buy a CV, a fairly expensive, non combat unit. Whereas your opponent can (and will) buy more combat units in order to push you out of the zones / area you are in.

Not saying that the CV mechanic is 100% perfect, but as it is right now, from a gameplay perspective it works a lot better. And the frontline in a Cold War Wargame scenario would be even worse than it is in SD.

(And I heard that sectors are even more realistic than the frontline, but I can't comment on that).

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby another505 » Tue 18 Jul 2017 12:16

throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:Need to make cv a lot cheaper , avail and log needs to have more spots and cheaper AP

If you look at a clown mod where CVs are 30pts, there's no point to sneaking to kill a CV when your sneaky unit costs as much as the CV, and buying or losing a CV has no effect on the tempo of the game. The old 300pt CVs were ridiculous but they're perfect at the moment, affordable but not throwaway.



But this is frontline mechanic, I assume CV has to be in the frontline and you are being awarded to push them forward. If cv are just as expensive and low avail. suicide and cv sniping are waaaay too rewarding.
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby integ3r » Tue 18 Jul 2017 12:25

In general, I think maps designed around zones but without a "clashing mid-zone" is actually the way to go.

For example, if there is a clashing zone, the game highly encourages opening poker to seize said zone from the get go of the game.
If there was no such zone and each player had a relatively "safe" zone then the game would force you to make a "real" push into their zone in such a way that it in almost no way could have gone down to luck.

On such maps, you can fight over forward positions initially, but that isn't itself also rewarded with victory points, just a good position from where to launch pushes.
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 18 Jul 2017 19:24

Razzmann wrote:(And I heard that sectors are even more realistic than the frontline, but I can't comment on that).

Yes and no.

SDN does give the feeling of how battles will generally unfold. You have forces moving up on secure routes as quickly as possible, then fanning out to try to push over the given area in order to have a meeting engagement. That being said, often there are certain locations that are assigned higher importance for a variety of reasons, and operations will evolve around them.
another505 wrote:
throwaway wrote:
another505 wrote:Need to make cv a lot cheaper , avail and log needs to have more spots and cheaper AP

If you look at a clown mod where CVs are 30pts, there's no point to sneaking to kill a CV when your sneaky unit costs as much as the CV, and buying or losing a CV has no effect on the tempo of the game. The old 300pt CVs were ridiculous but they're perfect at the moment, affordable but not throwaway.



But this is frontline mechanic, I assume CV has to be in the frontline and you are being awarded to push them forward. If cv are just as expensive and low avail. suicide and cv sniping are waaaay too rewarding.

Then don't push your CVs forward until you are confident you can protect them. If someone wants to push their CVs forward right up to a firefight, that's a big risk with a possible big reward. My only thing with it is with the rare (maybe only?) CV that can actually fight and fight good, like the T-80UK.

You need to push CVs up, but like in conquest games on say Bloody, you generally don't cap the middle until you have it locked down or if you think its worth the risk. Until you feel confident, just advance them and push the frontline in areas you feel you are comfortable in.
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