Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby throwaway » Tue 18 Jul 2017 21:26

I guess one thing regarding CV sniping would be, with a frontline mechanic pushed by only one unit per section per side, that one unit would be fairly easy to find and cluster.

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Vulcan 607
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Vulcan 607 » Tue 18 Jul 2017 21:35

You could just fly CV helicopters straight to the other side of the map and win if your opponent forgot his AA!

I personally see something similar to World in conflicts tug of war you have your zones you need to cap before you can advance.

Shame about WIC another great game killed to soon

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby steppewolf » Wed 19 Jul 2017 09:21

no please don't, it would be awful considering the higher mobility of Cold War/modern weaponry.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Holy_crap » Wed 19 Jul 2017 23:15

It's already kinda hard to sneak units against a well organized and decent opponent, except for maybe a helo around the side. The prevalence of cheap recon units and fodder allow for a pseudo-frontline to develop in RD. The problem with sectors is that some maps have pseudo-frontlines which inherently allow one side to win by the nature of their starting position. See Hell in a Very Small Place
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 20 Jul 2017 03:19

Holy_crap wrote:It's already kinda hard to sneak units against a well organized and decent opponent, except for maybe a helo around the side. The prevalence of cheap recon units and fodder allow for a pseudo-frontline to develop in RD. The problem with sectors is that some maps have pseudo-frontlines which inherently allow one side to win by the nature of their starting position. See Hell in a Very Small Place

Some of the new 1v1 maps are extra cancerous no doubt. Hell and 1v1 Paddy are just... horribad.

steppewolf wrote:no please don't, it would be awful considering the higher mobility of Cold War/modern weaponry.

You realize that most of that "higher mobility" is just grossly over modeled, right? One thing I like about SDN is how it slows down ground units considerably. Even with lightning fast units like the T-80U wouldn't really be zooming around running and gunning at 50-70kph, all modern tanks tend to "power creep" when it comes to engagements. I wouldn't mind seeing reduced speeds worked into Wargame as well.

Granted, modern M1s will zoom around with high speed dashes between positions, but when it comes to putting steel on target they rarely go that fast.

throwaway wrote:I guess one thing regarding CV sniping would be, with a frontline mechanic pushed by only one unit per section per side, that one unit would be fairly easy to find and cluster.

Why would there only be one CV per player?
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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby Razzmann » Thu 20 Jul 2017 10:21

Fade2Gray wrote:
Holy_crap wrote:It's already kinda hard to sneak units against a well organized and decent opponent, except for maybe a helo around the side. The prevalence of cheap recon units and fodder allow for a pseudo-frontline to develop in RD. The problem with sectors is that some maps have pseudo-frontlines which inherently allow one side to win by the nature of their starting position. See Hell in a Very Small Place

Some of the new 1v1 maps are extra cancerous no doubt. Hell and 1v1 Paddy are just... horribad.

These maps are actually not as problematic as Strait to the Point or Tropic Thunder in that regard. Sure one side has an andvantage but I never found it big enough to be more than just a bit annoyed about it.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby throwaway » Thu 20 Jul 2017 11:16

Fade2Gray wrote:
steppewolf wrote:no please don't, it would be awful considering the higher mobility of Cold War/modern weaponry.

You realize that most of that "higher mobility" is just grossly over modeled, right? One thing I like about SDN is how it slows down ground units considerably. Even with lightning fast units like the T-80U wouldn't really be zooming around running and gunning at 50-70kph, all modern tanks tend to "power creep" when it comes to engagements. I wouldn't mind seeing reduced speeds worked into Wargame as well.

Granted, modern M1s will zoom around with high speed dashes between positions, but when it comes to putting steel on target they rarely go that fast.

With the disclaimer that I only played the beta, I don't like the speeds in SD and definitely don't want them in RD. I like it when units complete my orders in reasonable time, ordering around slugs adds background frustration. The danger with all things realism is that they're fun to think about and design, but don't necessarily improve the gameplay. I personally think unit speeds are a strong competitor for the spot of biggest problem of SD, talking about balance or a lack of complexity is fun but ultimately most players are turned off by simpler things like whether the controls are snappy or your units are actively fighting you every time you try to get them to do something, whether the game looks good, etc.

Fade2Gray wrote:
throwaway wrote:I guess one thing regarding CV sniping would be, with a frontline mechanic pushed by only one unit per section per side, that one unit would be fairly easy to find and cluster.

Why would there only be one CV per player?

One CV per section of the map, because they are expensive and there isn't much benefit to spamming them to the same place.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby damoj » Thu 20 Jul 2017 13:28

The frontline system is a Paradox grand-strat mechanic that is based on the logic of force projection in the context of attrition warfare (Destruction gamemode).

It translates awfully into the conventions of maneuver warfare, which is where Wargame shines (Conquest gamemode).

If you want to encourage WW1-style entrenchment and charges, great. Not for mechanised and highly fluid warfare.

In other words, if you like spending 500pts on artillery in a huge-ass 10v10 map, sure, I'm confident you'll love a frontline for Wargame 4.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby steppewolf » Thu 20 Jul 2017 14:20

Fade2Gray wrote:
steppewolf wrote:no please don't, it would be awful considering the higher mobility of Cold War/modern weaponry.

You realize that most of that "higher mobility" is just grossly over modeled, right? One thing I like about SDN is how it slows down ground units considerably. Even with lightning fast units like the T-80U wouldn't really be zooming around running and gunning at 50-70kph, all modern tanks tend to "power creep" when it comes to engagements. I wouldn't mind seeing reduced speeds worked into Wargame as well.


Of course I realize a Sherman is moving with 48 km/h on road while a M1 with 72 km/h and 60 tons beasts are expected to drive trough some houses and trees while a WW2 tank wasn't expected to do that (see SD). I also realize the speeds from Wargame are rather a type of convention that tried to replicate the difference between wheels and tracks and have little resemblance with RL speeds.

However, I do expect T-80/M1s to fire on the move, even at half their road speed and bypass enemy lines twice as fast as any SD tank.

That frontline is simply not useful in a highly mechanized /airborne environment as Wargame is.

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Re: Bringing the Frontline System to Wargame

Postby PzAz04Maus » Thu 20 Jul 2017 14:38

If the visuals are the problem, change the frontline feature so...

  • Have a no mans land
  • Remove spawn caps. Units now spawn from the on the edge of the board from anywhere the player wants.
  • Make frontline start from the first mile of the board at each spawn, with a no man's land inbetween. Players thus need to grab the terrain at the start of the game.
  • Only show the player's own front line.
  • If this isn't satisfying enough, add a fog of war that only shows your front line's last known position if you're not directly viewing it.

I feel that the frontline mechanic affords players more flexibility by allowing them to choose what to hold and how to hold it. They are not penalized by an arbitrarily placed cap points that force them down the same roads or work through the same topography. If they find a chunk of terrain that's unimportant to their defense, they don't have to hold every arbitrary inch of it.

Capture points magnetize the player's attention to a handful of places that matter, concentrating forces into a predetermined killzone. No other place on the map, no matter how good the terrain is, will ever hold as much value.

I would rather have the front line than keep a design that still suffers from the CV Snipe or the broken helo rush. With the small adjustment of not letting helicopters take front line, airborne decks would become vastly more interesting once they don't have a massive white box telegraphing their LZ. On the flipside, because Steel Division has dispersed with the idea of a spawn zone in favor of multiple spawns along the edge of the map, the airborne player cannot finish a 5 minute game with a quick spawn cap. All of these benefits make the game vastly more playable while helicopters remain uncrippled.

Which can be good because it encourages fighting over more of the map, but in the end it sort of makes sneaky flanking impossible because the game heavily encourages the creation of a "frontline" and spreading troops out over this frontline.


I disagree because besides from the visual effect of the front line, spreading patrols over the front line increases the enemy's survivability, while those patrols are isolated and therefore are easy prey for raiding. Red Dragon's issue is that more often than not, a CP forces every unit of value except for a handful of scouts and CVs to within arm's reach of the player's objective. So yes, while you may see less things patrolling on the way in, the majority of targets that vehicle was going to try and kill are all still blobbed up. Given Wargame's pseudo-realistic design of light vehicles dying in about a thimbleful of hits, every engagement it tries to get into is more likely to be a 'one hit kill' from a massed unit of guns.

If you induce the enemy to disperse, the odds of a clutch of light vehicles dodging a handful of shots and then finding choice targets becomes much greater. Every unit dispersed on the front line means one less unit sitting next to an AA piece, or one less gun for the deathball. Dispersion is preferable.
Last edited by PzAz04Maus on Thu 20 Jul 2017 15:01, edited 2 times in total.

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