The many disadvantages of helicopters

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damoj
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby damoj » Mon 7 Aug 2017 13:11

There is no easy way of properly modelling helicopters and having them be anything less than broken, unless SPAAGs and IR AA are absurdly cheap and plentiful in some way that would totally mitigate the helos effectiveness.

Suppose anti-helo AA aim time is made as fast as heli-ATGM aim time. You know how plentiful the tears here would be.

But yeah, it would be cool if helicopters could move as deftly as they do IRL, and if vehicles and infantry could as well (gradually curved direction command, for example).

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby nuke92 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 13:50

Well rocket planes are the easiest way to open up a corridor for your gunships.

The only thing wrong with helos is that they can't move at lower altitude, let's say at a third of their max speed.

Helo countermeassures were a new thing in the 80s and there wasn't much besides flare dispensers early on, most long range anti helo missiles are saclos anyway. Unless you have something like this brand new counter meassure systems with 360° sensors, laser dazzlers, ecm pods (on huge external mounts) etc. you won't be safe.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:08

HrcAk47 wrote:I too enjoy getting helorushed and rocketpodded into oblivion.



No, im not asking for helo to be buffed but helo needs better mechanic next game because the current mechanics are very unfavourable to them other than helo rushing.
Razzmann wrote:snip

it was able to force you in a range disadvantage, and you were facing the dlc unit that has unfair hidden advantage over other helo. Your argument is that the helo is right next to your AA when most of the time the AA has 400m to shoot the helo down and probably even in cover.

the real life argument is that helo, does not get a nice REPRESENTATION or ABSTRACTION ingame, its actually half baked like navy

No, it isnt certain your helo will win after it was able to tank one hit.
1. It has to get sight and in range
2. the atgm are generally waaay less accurate than SAM and takes some time to get to target, while SAM could load the next shot and fire off
3. the easily lose morale and even more accuracy difference between the two

About counter. Then what about every other kinds of counter against other units?
Why can tanks used right can counter atgm planes(somewhat with smoke), atgm infantry and vehicles with cover?
Why can planes counter AA with rocket planes and LGB?

about the rocket pod helo:
the problem is that you allow to get inrange so close already. You can't complain that your m2a2 is being faced by t72b right inclose range and that m2a2 sucks in killing tanks
. and even so, the rocket helo is mostly blind. Send some cheap stuff somewhere and it waste its rocket and turn around. And even so SPAAG or AC unit can stun it
you make a specific uncommon scenario when the helo has all the advantage. Is like say, my motohrelki 90 was able to perfectly position next to a m1a2's rear. And now m1a2 is a bad unit.

Right, helicopters are straight up broken in helo rush
Other than the FEW RARE helo you see ingame, how is it broken?
Mi8mtv and its cousins, the two rocket helo of UK and France.
Longbow common, ka50 sometimes.
Rarely tigre Had or Pah2 in frontilne.

OUT OF SOME MANY HELOS, only a few are used.
Last edited by another505 on Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:13

damoj wrote:There is no easy way of properly modelling helicopters and having them be anything less than broken, unless SPAAGs and IR AA are absurdly cheap and plentiful in some way that would totally mitigate the helos effectiveness.

Suppose anti-helo AA aim time is made as fast as heli-ATGM aim time. You know how plentiful the tears here would be.

But yeah, it would be cool if helicopters could move as deftly as they do IRL, and if vehicles and infantry could as well (gradually curved direction command, for example).


I think we should look outside of the box -- the context of wargame's current meta and interaction.
Adding some new mechanic changes a lot, would be in a new wargame if there is one, and AA could also change.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:18

Razzmann wrote:And let's not forget about this interaction: https://gfycat.com/WiltedEnchantedIndigowingedparrot

So true irl example 8-) helo doing strafing.
and that is an anecdote argument, and again, isnt that the player's fault more than the unit interaction? Just like my m1a2 vs motoshreilki 90 example? The tunguskaM would win almost certainly if it was in the edge of the forest.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:21

nuke92 wrote:Well rocket planes are the easiest way to open up a corridor for your gunships.

The only thing wrong with helos is that they can't move at lower altitude, let's say at a third of their max speed.

Helo countermeassures were a new thing in the 80s and there wasn't much besides flare dispensers early on, most long range anti helo missiles are saclos anyway. Unless you have something like this brand new counter meassure systems with 360° sensors, laser dazzlers, ecm pods (on huge external mounts) etc. you won't be safe.

still not bad, say 20 ecm for top end helo is still a decent improvement than +5 big size.....

except rocket planes aren't exactly cheap either.... and can only remove 1 or lucky 2 AA at once if it works out nicely.
enemy could have send ASF. move their AA in cover, have other AA stunning/killing the rocket plane. There is a lot of ways it could go wrong
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:23

In ancient history there was a time when you could buy quad hellfire helis for 80 pts that could fire all of their shots in 1-2 seconds, most gun based aa was at 1925-2275 range, and there was a single (1) viable 3325 ranged aa piece with slow speed.


Chaparral had 4200m range in EE, albeit with terrible accuracy. ADATS has practically killed any enthusiasm I had for helicopter cavalry antics. I still like the Hinds but the missiles aren't good enough and you only get 4 of them now.

And let's not forget about this interaction: https://gfycat.com/WiltedEnchantedIndigowingedparrot


I suppose it still happens once in a while.

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:33

Helo countermeassures were a new thing in the 80s and there wasn't much besides flare dispensers early on, most long range anti helo missiles are saclos anyway. Unless you have something like this brand new counter meassure systems with 360° sensors, laser dazzlers, ecm pods (on huge external mounts) etc. you won't be safe.


The standard types were omnidirectional jammers like the ALQ-144 AKA 'disco ball' - they weren't particularly effective. Directional or directed IRCM weren't seen on helicopters until the 2000s. Flares were obviously quite common.

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby nande » Mon 7 Aug 2017 22:19

I find it strange that AA can't spot helis at max range by itself. Gotta love having lone ito 90 rocketed to death by tigres from invis, while driving on an open field. It's one interaction that I'd rather didn't require recon.

Also, gotta love Nimrods and their ability to safely duel AA.

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Tue 8 Aug 2017 04:00

nande wrote:I find it strange that AA can't spot helis at max range by itself. Gotta love having lone ito 90 rocketed to death by tigres from invis, while driving on an open field. It's one interaction that I'd rather didn't require recon.

Also, gotta love Nimrods and their ability to safely duel AA.


Well is la baguette stealth installed on it :D

Nimrod could only duel against certain AA range. Also no difference to a rocket or lgb plane that could duel with AA
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