West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

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Razzmann
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Razzmann » Sat 9 Sep 2017 14:21

GARGEAN wrote:Keiler in no way deserves 13 FAV it was worse armored that T-64A, which is 11.

It would be a really, really good buff for gameplay though :P

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby GARGEAN » Sat 9 Sep 2017 15:19

Razzmann wrote:It would be a really, really good buff for gameplay though :P

Pfffff. Gameplay < realism.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 9 Sep 2017 15:51

GARGEAN wrote:
Razzmann wrote:It would be a really, really good buff for gameplay though :P

Pfffff. Gameplay < realism.

In that case we need to severely rethink the air balance! :twisted:
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby GARGEAN » Sat 9 Sep 2017 18:56

Markenzwieback wrote:In that case we need to severely rethink the air balance! :twisted:

Deal. I'll be okay wil Su-24 with 3 KAB-1500Kr and MiG-31M with 13.6k ranged R-37.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 9 Sep 2017 19:12

GARGEAN wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:In that case we need to severely rethink the air balance! :twisted:

Deal. I'll be okay wil Su-24 with 3 KAB-1500Kr and MiG-31M with 13.6k ranged R-37.

In exchange you loose almost all A2A F&F capabilities, all high-end ASFs except Su-27S type and a MiG-29 version with SA missiles (which is getting a range or accuracy reduction). MiG-23s now are plentiful, as well as several types of close air support planes with lower ECM.

US stacks up Eagles with F&F AMRAMMs in better availability and gets Strike Eagle as well as Rockeyes on their Wild Weasels. Germany gets plenty of Tornado IDS with Cluster, heavier Mk80-series and some GBUs. Brits can easily get their Tornado SEAD and proper A2G loadout.

We could continue this quite a while. ;) I'd say gameplay is quite a bit more important than full realism for now. Especially since many weapon systems are simply fantasy-like abstractions from reality (*coughcough* TOS-1).
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby GARGEAN » Sat 9 Sep 2017 19:43

Markenzwieback wrote:In exchange you loose almost all A2A F&F capabilities, all high-end ASFs except Su-27S type and a MiG-29 version with SA missiles (which is getting a range or accuracy reduction). MiG-23s now are plentiful, as well as several types of close air support planes with lower ECM.

US stacks up Eagles with F&F AMRAMMs in better availability and gets Strike Eagle as well as Rockeyes on their Wild Weasels. Germany gets plenty of Tornado IDS with Cluster, heavier Mk80-series and some GBUs. Brits can easily get their Tornado SEAD and proper A2G loadout.

No deal, F&F capability is not crucial, but R-27R should retain as it is. Also R-27ER with more range added. Plus R-27EM for naval with added acc. R-77 or R-27EA can be added in pitiful numbers. Why the hell should later types like Su-27PU be dropped if we have Eurofighter and Rafale jumping around? With missiles that are as likely to exist in timeframe as R-77, I assume you. As for lower ECM - no shit. It should be reworked, not just lowered. Lower for MiG-29, but higher for Su-24, Su-25 and so on.

I'm fine with more types of AMRAAM carriers for US, but avail should be direct result of cost, which itself should be direct result of capabilities. So no shit.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Steamfunk » Sat 9 Sep 2017 22:11

Keiler in no way deserves 13 FAV it was worse armored that T-64A, which is 11.


I think it goes without saying the T-64A should also have 13-14 FAV but it's one of those units that never gets a mention nowadays.

Why the hell should later types like Su-27PU be dropped if we have Eurofighter and Rafale jumping around?


Yeah I don't understand this either, the PU is really just a more heavily armed version of the MiG-29M. Imagine if the MiG-29 had the same treatment as the F-16, we'd have 4 different versions and unlike the F-16 Block X/Y these would actually be relevant and/or useful.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Bougnas » Sat 9 Sep 2017 23:05

GARGEAN wrote:Keiler in no way deserves 13 FAV it was worse armored that T-64A, which is 11.



Not that I wouldn't like to see the T-64 series (and even the T-80s) get more properly modeled, but do you have the numbers so that we can better understand the comparison?

I'm perfectely fine with both the Keiler and the T-64s getting stat changes as long as we have data on their capabilities.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Steamfunk » Sat 9 Sep 2017 23:32

Not that I wouldn't like to see the T-64 series (and even the T-80s) get more properly modeled, but do you have the numbers so that we can better understand the comparison?


The T-64A had an steel/aluminium cast turret which BTVT estimated at around 410mm vs KE, the glacis is 335mm.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Bougnas » Sun 10 Sep 2017 10:14

Steamfunk wrote:
Not that I wouldn't like to see the T-64 series (and even the T-80s) get more properly modeled, but do you have the numbers so that we can better understand the comparison?


The T-64A had an steel/aluminium cast turret which BTVT estimated at around 410mm vs KE, the glacis is 335mm.


Didn't it use some form of glass to form a composite armor?
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