West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

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Markenzwieback
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 16 Sep 2017 09:32

Nathan des Lessings wrote:I dont think that a new unit would be introduced, but maybe a existing unit would be changed.

Considering how useless Deckungsgruppe is in game, I wouldn't mind at all.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Sat 16 Sep 2017 15:29

Markenzwieback wrote:
Nathan des Lessings wrote:I dont think that a new unit would be introduced, but maybe a existing unit would be changed.

Considering how useless Deckungsgruppe is in game, I wouldn't mind at all.

Just because you don't understand how a unit works or you haven't learnt how to use something that is worth twice its value against everything and everywhere except in towns doesn't mean it's useless.

One of the factors I use to rank decks is the availability of that unit to any nation or spec.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 17 Sep 2017 12:41

urogard wrote:Just because you don't understand how a unit works or you haven't learnt how to use something that is worth twice its value against everything and everywhere except in towns doesn't mean it's useless.

One of the factors I use to rank decks is the availability of that unit to any nation or spec.

Oh right, the 'get good' argument.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Sun 17 Sep 2017 14:47

Markenzwieback wrote:
urogard wrote:Just because you don't understand how a unit works or you haven't learnt how to use something that is worth twice its value against everything and everywhere except in towns doesn't mean it's useless.

One of the factors I use to rank decks is the availability of that unit to any nation or spec.

Oh right, the 'get good' argument.

No shit, what response did you expect when you said "omg eugen unit is useless"

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 17 Sep 2017 14:59

urogard wrote:No shit, what response did you expect when you said "omg eugen unit is useless"

I simply pointed out that I don't care whether Deckungsgruppe exists or not, for the reason that I consider them to be useless. Especially in the context of a unit which I proposed and discussed before making said statement (Jagdkommando). Don't know where you got the the "omg eugen" part from.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Sun 17 Sep 2017 16:48

Markenzwieback wrote:
urogard wrote:No shit, what response did you expect when you said "omg eugen unit is useless"

I simply pointed out that I don't care whether Deckungsgruppe exists or not, for the reason that I consider them to be useless.

Which is exactly what my response was about; to tell you that it's a highly effective unit and has many uses and you should think about finding another unit which maybe fits the criteria you set forth (i.e. "being useless")
That should have been the end of it, instead you decided that "git gud" is an inadequate response to "muh unit is useless".

Markenzwieback wrote:Especially in the context of a unit which I proposed and discussed before making said statement (Jagdkommando).

Especially in the context of replacing it with a 5 man team without MG and an ATGM which is functionally identical to something FRG already has.
And since that change would make the regular Milan F2 completely redundant, isn't it more logical to simply replace existing Milan F2 to the unit you're proposing instead of removing a unit that is unique for FRG/EC/GDC?

Markenzwieback wrote:Don't know where you got the the "omg eugen" part from.

the "omg eugen" comes from you calling a unit that's in the game (and placed by EUG) useless even though it's not.
There's plenty of units which can more or less genuinely be called useless, but calling deckungsgruppe useless, you're just shooting yourself in the foot with that.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 17 Sep 2017 17:12

urogard wrote:And since that change would make the regular Milan F2 completely redundant, isn't it more logical to simply replace existing Milan F2 to the unit you're proposing instead of removing a unit that is unique for FRG/EC/GDC?

It wouldn't be redundant, as Jagdkommando squads (composed of Panzergrenadiers) would only be available to motorized and mechanized decks (and in Marder IFVs). All other specializations would still need dedicated ATGM teams.

The point of Jagdkommando would be flavor, in the sense that the fighting tactic of Panzergrenadier units during the Cold War revolved around the fighting with and support of armored formations. The ability of tank-killing in areas where tanks would be at increased risk (using their RPGs and dismounted ATGMs from their IFVs) was one of the main important aspects of it.

urogard wrote:the "omg eugen" comes from you calling a unit that's in the game (and placed by EUG) useless even though it's not.
There's plenty of units which can more or less genuinely be called useless, but calling deckungsgruppe useless, you're just shooting yourself in the foot with that.

While I agree that certain tank-hunter units (namely Dutch, Norwegian and Canadian, also SMAWs) have a certain effectiveness in game, Deckungsgruppe is something I haven't seen used in ages (at least when playing against higher level players that is).

Sure, combined with Marder 1s they are a pretty cheap combo and for that exact reason I have played them for a while to test them out. But their main downsides are that they die way quicker and do less damage than regular 10-man squads. Even when you consider the HE value on the CG.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Sun 17 Sep 2017 21:32

Markenzwieback wrote:Sure, combined with Marder 1s they are a pretty cheap combo and for that exact reason I have played them for a while to test them out. But their main downsides are that they die way quicker and do less damage than regular 10-man squads. Even when you consider the HE value on the CG.

The trick is same as with tanks in forests, their force multiplies for each additional you send, unlike with infantry where their force only stacks additively.

1 tank is easy to kill even with infantry, 4 tanks is close to impossible unless you have tanks of your own since you'll get panicked instantly and stay stunned forever.

So yeah, 1v1 deckungsgruppe loses.
But that's like saying Yugo Praga is bad because a single one can almost never kill a longbow since one of the two missiles will almost always miss.
Or the same story with even elite Finnish Mig 29. Solo it's more or less worthless, get a second one and you almost triple your chances for a kill.
The trick is the same, use more than 1

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 17 Sep 2017 23:28

urogard wrote:The trick is the same, use more than 1

And what would that change in regard to squad size and their rather lackluster weapons (SMGs + base CG)? If you spam several of them, their HE will obviously do some work. But in comparison to other unit combinations in decks with German participation, I find Deckungsgruppe rather underwhelming. Mainly because they a) die fast (especially to mortars and tanks) and b) don't excel in any department (neither AT nor anti-infantry).
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Mon 18 Sep 2017 01:07

Markenzwieback wrote:
urogard wrote:The trick is the same, use more than 1

And what would that change in regard to squad size and their rather lackluster weapons (SMGs + base CG)? If you spam several of them, their HE will obviously do some work. But in comparison to other unit combinations in decks with German participation, I find Deckungsgruppe rather underwhelming. Mainly because they a) die fast (especially to mortars and tanks) and b) don't excel in any department (neither AT nor anti-infantry).

Deckungsgruppe shoots like a tank, you get 1 shot very quickly, then you need to reload to fire another. So that 15 RPM results in 2 shots (4 HE) being fired in 4 seconds.

Say you have 2 such teams and jump on a team of Panzergrens.
In 4 Seconds you deal 8 HE (x0.7 due to forest) erasing half their team and suppressing them enough that they are probably about to panick which means their own DPS will take a huge dump.
Even 2 Jager teams will not be able to deal this much damage quickly. So as a rule, if # of teams is > 1, all other things being equal, deckungsgruppe defeats infantry of equal cost almost consistently (whereby the rule is, the more expensive the target, the more certain the success).
So if you send militia, they have a good chance of dealing a lot more damage to deckungsgruppen than say a squad of spetz (2 spetz vs 7 deckungsgruppe is suicide for the spetz)

That's also why they are useless when attacking infantry in cities but absolutely destroy anything approaching them in the open.

That 70% accuracy and 15 RPM also helps a lot more when trying to kill many transports even when under fire and shaken than if you have Jagers or base PanzerGrens with PzF 44 (55% acc/10 RPM)
As you point out, 5-man team is their major drawback and rightfully so, 10 man teams would be crazy powerful.

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