West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

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Markenzwieback
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 18 Sep 2017 09:42

urogard wrote:-snip-

As I said, their burst damage in HE is probably the only thing they have going for them. In the end I still prefer some squads of Chasseur/Dutch shock infantry/Danish shock infantry (depending on the coalition) plus Keiler. While the infantry might die, the Keilers have the distinct advantage of survivability and with AP scaling and autoloader can inflict some major damage even to higher end tanks.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby urogard » Mon 18 Sep 2017 12:07

Markenzwieback wrote:
urogard wrote:-snip-

As I said, their burst damage in HE is probably the only thing they have going for them. In the end I still prefer some squads of Chasseur/Dutch shock infantry/Danish shock infantry (depending on the coalition) plus Keiler. While the infantry might die, the Keilers have the distinct advantage of survivability and with AP scaling and autoloader can inflict some major damage even to higher end tanks.

Yes, that burst damage IS the only thing they got going got them. you panic them and they are useless, also they are helpless against even cheap helo transports fyi. which is the reason it's an underdog unit and I never see anyone use it. maybe that's also the reason why it works for me, people lack the experience with it, so they underestimate it.

But 2 keilers cost 120? (I forget if it's 60 or 65), but if you send just 1 and it meets any 90' pact inf, high end rpg's rape it due to low armor, so you obviously can't send it alone (the reason I don't use tanks with less than 19 armor in forests)

you know how much enemy infantry and tanks you can destroy with 120 points worth of deckungsgruppe?
the good part is, you'd also mostly only send them in groups of 2-3. there's no point sending a quad stack or multiple stacks on the same place, so they are spread out by default and do not get erased by one bomber or arty salvo.

of course one always uses combined arms, so those 2 keilers won't be alone in the forest, but neither will the deckungsgruppe.
So ultimately my point is merely that whatever mainstream infantry you'd send into forests, you'd be better off with those deckungsgruppe, the rest of your force composition (aa, tanks, fsv) remains the same.

At least I know I would because that's my experience which is consistent over hundreds of games, at times even beating several players worth of forces on my own. (razzman calls this anectdotal evidence, but not like I give a shit, everyone should use what they have the most success with, more importantly people shouldn't be afraid of trying out other people's strategies as well)

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Sunshine » Tue 19 Sep 2017 13:55

I don't know, I do not think Germany is in a dire state, like some try to portray it, but it sure could need some polishing, especially since the P2... I mean "DLCs".
Merkava, Mag'ach, Vihor... it's a little ridiculous, compared to what we had before.

Regarding Germany, mh, I could see the Luchs A1 deserving a price buff (40 -> 35), the Leo 2a1 down to 95,

- Luchs A1 from 40 to 35
- Leopard 2A1 from 100 to 95
- Leopard 1 series ROF to 13RPM (no, I shall never give up on this... ever.)
- Tiger loadout to 8x HOT-2 instead of SNEB nonsense (because 3 out of 4 missiles will miss anyways)
- Roland 3 to optical, as Germany has no air assets able to help out the air defence network

And rename FschJg '90 to B1 Kommando already.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby molnibalage » Tue 19 Sep 2017 15:43

Sunshine wrote:- Leopard 1 series ROF to 13RPM (no, I shall never give up on this... ever.)

Based on what this insane ROF?

- Roland 3 to optical, as Germany has no air assets able to help out the air defence network

SEAD immune optical SAMs are the biggest bullshit and inbalacne issues are in WG...

Optical TRACKING does not mean that a SAM vehicle does not emit RCG signals. AGM-88 HARM and later ARM could use these signals. AGM-45/78 and their contep. ARMs could not. ---> In WG you cannot make such difference so should not be any ARM immune SAM as long as AAAs can be killed with ARM which uses for much, much less time radar for aiming...

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Sunshine » Tue 19 Sep 2017 16:47

molnibalage wrote:
Sunshine wrote:- Leopard 1 series ROF to 13RPM (no, I shall never give up on this... ever.)

Based on what this insane ROF?


Long story short, I asked a few ex-Leopard 1 operators (German army) years ago because I wanted to hear something definite and out of first hand and they confirmed this and even explained why it was so fast.
I posted this like 10 times already here, so I dug it up for you here.
Interestingly enough, a Leo 1 tanker from Norway said this as well - unrelated to my research, and someone here posted that as well, but I do not remember who, when and where, sorry. Old topic.

molnibalage wrote:
Sunshine wrote:- Roland 3 to optical, as Germany has no air assets able to help out the air defence network

SEAD immune optical SAMs are the biggest bullshit and inbalacne issues are in WG...

Optical TRACKING does not mean that a SAM vehicle does not emit RCG signals. AGM-88 HARM and later ARM could use these signals. AGM-45/78 and their contep. ARMs could not. ---> In WG you cannot make such difference so should not be any ARM immune SAM as long as AAAs can be killed with ARM which uses for much, much less time radar for aiming...

I disagree that it is the biggest bullshit in Wargame, but I agree with the rest that you said.
I was looking for an AA network buff for Germany as the air force is so underwhelming.
Now if Germany would have the Eurofighter, things would be different.

But Germany can't have nice things because MadMat is a meanie! :(

Of course, it doesn't have the worst AA network.
There's still those countries that have to rely on tracked rapiers and other slow-ass AA(A). :)
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 19 Sep 2017 19:40

Sunshine wrote:
molnibalage wrote:
Sunshine wrote:- Leopard 1 series ROF to 13RPM (no, I shall never give up on this... ever.)

Based on what this insane ROF?

Long story short, I asked a few ex-Leopard 1 operators (German army) years ago because I wanted to hear something definite and out of first hand and they confirmed this and even explained why it was so fast.
I posted this like 10 times already here, so I dug it up for you here.
Interestingly enough, a Leo 1 tanker from Norway said this as well - unrelated to my research, and someone here posted that as well, but I do not remember who, when and where, sorry. Old topic.

So pretty much the same as every other manually loaded tank in the game. The first couple of rounds can be fired very quickly and while the loader does tire and the ammunition does get harder to reach you're not actually going to shoot enough rounds in a single engagement for that to really take its toll.

Just be glad that the Leopard 1 got 10 RPM.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Sunshine » Tue 19 Sep 2017 19:51

No.
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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby Nathan des Lessings » Tue 19 Sep 2017 21:27

Sunshine wrote:No.

Dont give up!
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby molnibalage » Wed 20 Sep 2017 15:52

FrangibleCover wrote:So pretty much the same as every other manually loaded tank in the game. The first couple of rounds can be fired very quickly and while the loader does tire and the ammunition does get harder to reach you're not actually going to shoot enough rounds in a single engagement for that to really take its toll.

Just be glad that the Leopard 1 got 10 RPM.

100% agree. Following this idea T-62 also can het 10 RoF becauase first rounds are close and only the last rounds are far from gun...
For manually loaded MBT guns even 10 RoF is maybe over modeling...

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Re: West-Germany (or hoping without hope)

Postby nuke92 » Wed 20 Sep 2017 19:57

was this one ever used?
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