Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

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another505
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby another505 » Tue 22 Aug 2017 03:22

Fade2Gray wrote:The EOTS is so damn slow however that unless you literally park it right on roads its stupid easy to smash with arty. Heaven forbid that thing is in a forest, it will get one, maybe two, shots off and then die to arty.

PATRIOT and Newa tho... yeah.

Is not always that your deck has useful long range artillery or MLRS because of the deck choice or you took other kinds of artillery, such as the necessary mortars.

also, most of the time, you dont know it is eots hawk, you only see a missile hitting your plane. So you buy a sead, but that sead is a waste a point, which could cost from 80 to 150pts wasted.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sir Typhoon » Tue 22 Aug 2017 08:58

HrcAk47 wrote:- too long range on Machbet (should be 2625 as other 20mm systems)


Machbet needs to have 2800 m of range. All coalitions have 1 at least, even Red Dragons, and it's because the maximun range of heli missiles have a range of 2800 m. Removing that from Israel, It would become defenseless against the most of the helicpters in game. Maybe you think that Drakon solves the problem, but it doesn't, because missiles, can hit or not, however, spaags rounds always hits, allowing the player to stun the helicopter, even if him doesn't shoot down the helicopter.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby nande » Tue 22 Aug 2017 10:33

Sir Typhoon wrote:Machbet needs to have 2800 m of range. All coalitions have 1 at least, even Red Dragons
USA pre-NORAD didn't, which I think is a fine measuring-stick when it comes to Israel.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Markenzwieback » Tue 22 Aug 2017 10:36

nande wrote:
Sir Typhoon wrote:Machbet needs to have 2800 m of range. All coalitions have 1 at least, even Red Dragons
USA pre-NORAD didn't, which I think is a fine measuring-stick when it comes to Israel.

You are forgetting that the USA also had a full range (as in 3325m) Chaparral.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby nande » Tue 22 Aug 2017 10:42

Markenzwieback wrote:You are forgetting that the USA also had a full range (as in 3325m) Chaparral.
did USA have the current DAP back then, I can't remember. Regardless, it was missing many of Israel's tools, like even the Shahak for instance.

that reminds me, L-15M +5 or 10pts. I hate how it completely prices out the MiG-29.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby GARGEAN » Tue 22 Aug 2017 11:12

Sir Typhoon wrote:
Machbet needs to have 2800 m of range. All coalitions have 1 at least, even Red Dragons, and it's because the maximun range of heli missiles have a range of 2800 m. Removing that from Israel, It would become defenseless against the most of the helicpters in game. Maybe you think that Drakon solves the problem, but it doesn't, because missiles, can hit or not, however, spaags rounds always hits, allowing the player to stun the helicopter, even if him doesn't shoot down the helicopter.

Every coalition has 10 sec aimtime arty. Where's one for Red Dragons? Dump argument. 2625m range will not make Israel so much easy prey for helis, and there's definitely no reason why Macbeth with shitty 20mm should perform on level of Gepard.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby integ3r » Tue 22 Aug 2017 18:54

Instead of manually testing, I just wrote a simulator so I can test 5000 battles. It disregards effects of morale because I don't know the recovery rate and panic thresholds. So the simulator basically maximizes the ROF of NATO.

M84A is set to have 8 Rof which is the proposed nerf.

The 84A has a decisive advantage against these factions because they either do not have a tank of similar cost, or a tank of similar cost cannot fight it effectively.
- Scandinavia* (*assuming you actually micro and don't take constant shots.)
- Blue dragon
- Red dragon
- USA
- USSR
- NSWP

These factions have to reach for the next tier of tank which is lower in avail and is at a >10 price jump.

Chally 1 cannot be beaten by it, but it is trading lots of "soft-stats" for that privilege. It cannot pursue a M84A. It has no autoloader, poor stabs and speed, but at least commonwealth has an option within 10 points.

Eurocorps can bite the bullet and take the 2A1 to put up a fight.

Code: Select all

Leo 2A1 wins: 2918.0 Win rate: 58.36 %
M-84A wins: 2082.0 Win rate: 41.64 %
Tie rate: 0.0 %
Average health left for Leo 2A1 when it won: 4.293180260452365
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.9060999039385207


M84 really performs well in some particular matchups. Consider K1:
Open ground

Code: Select all

K1 wins: 920 Win rate: 18.4 %
M-84A wins: 4080 Win rate: 81.6 %
Tie rate: 0.0 %
Average health left for K1 when it won: 3.002173913043478
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.85

Forest fights

Code: Select all

Trading hits in forest (No reverse micro)
K1 wins: 4904.0 Win rate: 98.08 %
M-84A wins: 96.0 Win rate: 1.92 %
Tie rate: 0.0 %
Average health left for K1 when it won: 2.562703915171289
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.0

Reverse micro to negate ROF advantage.
K1 wins: 110.0 Win rate: 2.2 %
M-84A wins: 73.0 Win rate: 1.46 %
Tie rate: 96.34 %
Average health left for K1 when it won: 2.5
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.0


It trades being completely useless on open ground for being superior in forests if 1) your opponent is not microing and 2) you are not losing ROF due to morale damage. Is this a fair trade?

Code: Select all

T-72B1 wins: 1164 Win rate: 23.28 %
M-84A wins: 3220 Win rate: 64.4 %
Tie rate: 12.32 %
Average health left for T-72B1 when it won: 2.4278350515463916
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 4.59316770186335

OK. So, 10 points gets you a decisive advantage over a tank. It will usually win with almost half health left and you have excellent pursuit/retreat options for when you're winning/losing. How much must we spend to gain a decisive advantage over M84A?

Code: Select all

T72B Obr 87 wins: 3822 Win rate: 76.44 %
M-84A wins: 827 Win rate: 16.54 %
Tie rate: 7.02 %
Average health left for T72B Obr 87 when it won: 3.7103610675039245
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.545949214026602

It'll win a straight up fight. But take tons of damage doing so. We have poor pursuit options because of worse speed and stabs. I guess Svir gives you SOME equalizer in that department. Obr87 is very cost effective but you have to shell out 15 points more for that decisive advantage. Still lacking in soft stats.

IMO, 84A should just trade some "soft-stats" to remain at 95. It sits at an important tier that many factions lack while having great utility.

Code: Select all

ChonmaHoV wins: 1486.0 Win rate: 29.72 %
M-84A wins: 2797.0 Win rate: 55.94 %
Tie rate: 14.34 %
Average health left for ChonmaHoV when it won: 3.642328398384926
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 3.1590990346800143


Code: Select all

Wilk wins: 1798.0 Win rate: 35.96 %
M-84A wins: 3202.0 Win rate: 64.04 %
Tie rate: 0.0 %
Average health left for Wilk when it won: 2.8303670745272527
Average health left for M-84A when it won: 4.664272329793879


EDIT: I should factor in veterancy... higher base acc means bigger impact of veterancy.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Tue 22 Aug 2017 19:18

Would you mind running the same tests with these tanks?

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby integ3r » Tue 22 Aug 2017 19:19

Razzmann wrote:Would you mind running the same tests with these tanks?

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I'll run them. Standby... Will edit post.
EDIT:
T-72 M1 MOD wins: 4758.0 Win rate: 95.16 %
M1A1(HC) Abrams wins: 110.0 Win rate: 2.2 %
Tie rate: 2.64 %
Average health left for T-72 M1 MOD when it won: 4.687263556116015
Average health left for M1A1(HC) Abrams when it won: 3.0681818181818183

Leopard 1A5NO2 wins: 844.0 Win rate: 16.88 %
Leo C2 Mexas wins: 3433.0 Win rate: 68.66 %
Tie rate: 14.46 %
Average health left for Leopard 1A5NO2 when it won: 3.9786729857819907
Average health left for Leo C2 Mexas when it won: 4.421060297116225

STRV 105 wins: 2177.0 Win rate: 43.54 %
Leopard 1A5 wins: 2823.0 Win rate: 56.46 %
Tie rate: 0.0 %
Average health left for STRV 105 when it won: 3.508497932935232
Average health left for Leopard 1A5 when it won: 3.830676585193057

T-72 wins: 270.0 Win rate: 5.4 %
T-72M wins: 4613.0 Win rate: 92.26 %
Tie rate: 2.34 %
Average health left for T-72 when it won: 3.5185185185185186
Average health left for T-72M when it won: 5.1244309559939305


Actually, T72 will pretty much never win. Because I accidentally didn't factor the range disadvantage.

10 pts gain you decisive advantages generally. Too bad there's no 105 point tanks. Also, Mod1 OP pls nerf. Major advantage against undeadable abrams.

Also strv 105 OP.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Steamfunk » Tue 22 Aug 2017 20:07

T-55AM/T-55AI
T-72M1/M-84
T-64BM/M-84A

Predictions?

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