Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

GARGEAN
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby GARGEAN » Wed 23 Aug 2017 12:55

throwaway wrote:
GARGEAN wrote: It has ability to fire whole bump of ammo without reload which Shilka(with full load of ammunition on guns) lacks for some magic "reload" reason.

This is easy to mix up, but having a reload is a good thing if real rof is equal. It means the alpha is higher. What would you rather have, a gun that does 1/6hp every second without reloading ever or a gun that does 10hp instantly and then reloads for a minute? A tank that fires 4 shots with a lengthy reload or a tank with perfectly consistent autoloader?

Suppressing stuff is an exception, but it depends on the target and is a niche thing unless we're talking m163cs,

Not exactly that way. One ot even two Shilkas will imflict done damage at plane and then will go to long reload. When they finish reload, plane will be long gone. M163 will shoot at it until it will exit zone, thus making more damage or even downing plane in single hands.
Plus shilka has LOWER real rof with reload that M163 without. Not even same.

throwaway
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby throwaway » Wed 23 Aug 2017 12:59

GARGEAN wrote:Plus shilka has LOWER real rof with reload that M163 without. Not even same.

As long as you acknowledge that having reload is a benefit instead of listing it with the other drawbacks..

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:09

throwaway wrote:As long as you acknowledge that having reload is a benefit instead of listing it with the other drawbacks..

Misleading RoF charts is hardly a benefit. The only thing that matters is the TTK against planes and the ability to keep ground targets suppressed until they stop being a threat. In the latter case, having to reload is a major weakness.
Last edited by Sigirdiwarth on Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:19, edited 2 times in total.
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GARGEAN
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby GARGEAN » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:11

throwaway wrote:
GARGEAN wrote:Plus shilka has LOWER real rof with reload that M163 without. Not even same.

As long as you acknowledge that having reload is a benefit instead of listing it with the other drawbacks..

Because it IS drawback in both AA and AG work.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby throwaway » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:16

GARGEAN wrote:Because it IS drawback in both AA and AG work.

Give me one case where having a reload is a drawback in AA work. You can make up any engagement length and reload length you want, the worst case you'll be able to come up with will be a tie.

Sigirdiwarth wrote:Misleading RoF charts is hardly a benefit. The only thing that matters is the TTK against planes and the ability to keep ground targets suppressed until they stop being a threat. In the latter case, having to reload is a major weakness.

And in the former case, the main use case, it is a benefit. Keeping ground targets suppressed is pretty secondary and doesn't even apply to all ground targets, just infantry (against tanks you're relying on crits, and those are preferably frontloaded).
Last edited by throwaway on Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:20

throwaway wrote:
GARGEAN wrote:Because it IS drawback in both AA and AG work.

Give me one case where it is a drawback in AA work. You can make up any engagement length and reload length you want, the worst case you'll be able to come up with will be a tie.

Sigirdiwarth wrote:Misleading RoF charts is hardly a benefit. The only thing that matters is the TTK against planes and the ability to keep ground targets suppressed until they stop being a threat. In the latter case, having to reload is a major weakness.

And in the former case, the main use case, it is a benefit. Keeping ground targets suppressed is pretty secondary and doesn't even apply to all ground targets, just infantry (against tanks you're relying on crits, and those are preferably frontloaded).

You seem to forget that weapons reload only after they've run out of ammo, meaning that they will reload midfight (in the overwhelming majority of cases) and the TTK will skyrocket.

throwaway wrote:against tanks you're relying on crits, and those are preferably frontloaded

No, I'm relying on suppression, as I said.
Last edited by Sigirdiwarth on Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
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throwaway
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby throwaway » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:21

Sigirdiwarth wrote:You seem to forget that weapons reload only after they've run out of ammo, meaning that they will reload midfight (in the overwhelming majority of cases) and the TTK will skyrocket.


I'm talking about salvo reloads which have nothing to do with ammo.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sigirdiwarth » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:24

throwaway wrote:
Sigirdiwarth wrote:You seem to forget that weapons reload only after they've run out of ammo, meaning that they will reload midfight (in the overwhelming majority of cases) and the TTK will skyrocket.


I'm talking about salvo reloads which have nothing to do with ammo.

Are you being facetious?
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sir Typhoon » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:24

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Last edited by Sir Typhoon on Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby throwaway » Wed 23 Aug 2017 13:30

Sigirdiwarth wrote:
throwaway wrote:
Sigirdiwarth wrote:You seem to forget that weapons reload only after they've run out of ammo, meaning that they will reload midfight (in the overwhelming majority of cases) and the TTK will skyrocket.


I'm talking about salvo reloads which have nothing to do with ammo.

Are you being facetious?


No, I genuinely assumed you were bringing up supply trucks to the discussion. For normal reloads, there is NO case where reload has worse TTK than consistent shot given equal rof. Consider a gun that takes a second to shoot 9 times, then reloads for 9s. Another gun shoots once every 1.11 seconds. Both have a rof of 9 shots per 10 seconds. The worst case of the first gun is where the engagement is 10 seconds long, meaning it ends right before its second burst. Even in this worst case its performance is a tie with the consistent shooter, in all other cases it is better.

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