Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Oktoberfest
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Mon 11 Sep 2017 17:18

Razzmann wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:I remember that post very well, but the rule was broken immediately afterwards when DLC Nations came.

Such as? Which 105mm gun breaks the rule?


Sorry, I don't remember which one, but I am sure it was said already that one of the new DLC nation 105mm gun gets extra AP despite that rule. Need to check it again but if I am wrong then I take my word back immediately!

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Mon 11 Sep 2017 17:20

Oktoberfest wrote:
Razzmann wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:I remember that post very well, but the rule was broken immediately afterwards when DLC Nations came.

Such as? Which 105mm gun breaks the rule?


Sorry, I don't remember which one, but I am sure it was said already that one of the new DLC nation 105mm gun gets extra AP despite that rule. Need to check it again but if I am wrong then I take my word back immediately!

I did a quick check and I did not find any (DLC) 105mm gun that breaks the rule. Just a quick one though, so I could have missed it.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Mike » Mon 11 Sep 2017 20:53

Razzmann wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:I remember that post very well, but the rule was broken immediately afterwards when DLC Nations came.

Such as? Which 105mm gun breaks the rule?


Pretty sure an Israeli tank gets the M900 (17 AP) before the round was even produced.
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby XanderTuron » Mon 11 Sep 2017 21:05

Mike wrote:Pretty sure an Israeli tank gets the M900 (17 AP) before the round was even produced.

The armour and AP on the early Merkavas seem to be a little too high in my opinion, especially when considering when they were introduced.
My mouth is moving, but nothing relevant is coming out. Also I cannot guarantee that my research is perfect or even remotely accurate.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Bougnas » Mon 11 Sep 2017 21:31

Razzmann wrote:Welp, looks like I was partially wrong, there was no rule for 1981-1985 guns:
We have decided to grant high-end non-120mm MBT some more AP, based on service date's improved ammunitions, in order to buff minor nations(although a few "majors"' tanks are getting buffed in the process):
- 16 AP for 1985-1991 105/115mm.
- 17 AP for >1991 105/115mm.

viewtopic.php?f=155&t=49863#p742910

Though I'd say it would be a decent idea to give all 105mm guns from that time frame 15AP.


Adding such a rule would make sense as this would make 1980-1985 tanks more viable and also because most of the APFSDS ammo introduced at that time had relatively similar performance.

For instance at 2000m:
- the 1982 AMX 30B2 had the OFL 105F1 ammo penetrating 420mm.

- the Danish introduced the DM 33 ammo in 1985, penetrating 410mm IIRC.

- Germans have the DM 33 as well but they have no Leo 1 variants in that timeframe IG

- the Swedish have the m/80 round (M111 Hetz/DM 23 license production IIRC) with 390mm of penetration.

- the US have I believe the M774 with 390mm of pen, then from 1983 on the M833 with 460mm of pen IIRC (might be worth giving the M1IP Abrams 16 AP and 2275m range)

I'm not sure about the rest, Afaik the Canadians have the C76 but I don't know it's performances.
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 11 Sep 2017 22:01

Welp, looks like I was partially wrong, there was no rule for 1981-1985 guns:


They obviously made a few exceptions to the rule with the Magach and Finnish T-55s. Israel did have the M-426/DM-63 but it's post-1991 (Leo 1A5 NO2 uses this round).

For instance at 2000m:
- the 1982 AMX 30B2 had the OFL 105F1 ammo penetrating 420mm.


I had this discussion with Oktoberfest a while back - the ammo the B2 has is correct. The best 105mm round available at that time was the Israeli M-111/DM-23 and the Soviets were forced to uparmour their tanks in response.

the US have I believe the M774 with 390mm of pen, then from 1983 on the M833 with 460mm of pen IIRC (might be worth giving the M1IP Abrams 16 AP and 2275m range)


Those figures are on the high side but 16 AP is reasonable.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Tue 12 Sep 2017 17:11

Mike wrote:
Razzmann wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:I remember that post very well, but the rule was broken immediately afterwards when DLC Nations came.

Such as? Which 105mm gun breaks the rule?


Pretty sure an Israeli tank gets the M900 (17 AP) before the round was even produced.


Ahhh, that was it!

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Tue 12 Sep 2017 17:30

Steamfunk wrote:
Welp, looks like I was partially wrong, there was no rule for 1981-1985 guns:


They obviously made a few exceptions to the rule with the Magach and Finnish T-55s. Israel did have the M-426/DM-63 but it's post-1991 (Leo 1A5 NO2 uses this round).

For instance at 2000m:
- the 1982 AMX 30B2 had the OFL 105F1 ammo penetrating 420mm.


I had this discussion with Oktoberfest a while back - the ammo the B2 has is correct. The best 105mm round available at that time was the Israeli M-111/DM-23 and the Soviets were forced to uparmour their tanks in response.

the US have I believe the M774 with 390mm of pen, then from 1983 on the M833 with 460mm of pen IIRC (might be worth giving the M1IP Abrams 16 AP and 2275m range)


Those figures are on the high side but 16 AP is reasonable.


The rule is pretty simple, 30mm penetration is 1 AP. If you have a round piercing 300mm, it's 10 AP.
The AMX-30B2 can fire the OFL105G2, which has 440mm of penetration, giving it 14,67mm of pen, or rounded 15AP (the APs are rounded at the superior value IG, for every value superior to 0,5).
The OFL105F1 would have exactly 14AP. It's an improvement from the 12AP the 30B2 currently gets, but I think it wouldn't differentiate it enough from the 13AP HEAT the AMX-30B should get with its 400mm penetration. The HEAT round would be the get go given the advantage HEAT round gives over KE rounds at distance (the stupid does not penetrate therefore I don't shoot rule). But that's another topic.

The M833, with 460mm penetration would have 15,33 AP, so rounded to 15 AP. The M774 would be a round 13AP.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Bougnas » Tue 12 Sep 2017 18:07

When did France receive the OFL105G2 round?
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby GARGEAN » Tue 12 Sep 2017 18:20

XanderTuron wrote:The armour and AP on the early Merkavas seem to be a little too high in my opinion, especially when considering when they were introduced.

Little?.. They are overmodelled as fuck, and not only early ones.

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