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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 15:15
by HrcAk47
Okay so, let me get this straight. You're crusading for a "rule" you don't even remember, and that had patently been proven wrong by every single unit in existence?

What

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 15:22
by Vobule
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UvB ... sp=sharing

Eugen never made his work offical so stop saying they are scriptures to blindly follow.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 15:56
by GARGEAN
And yeah, BTR is nice guy and stuff, but his conclusions sometimes questionable at best.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 16:20
by Grabbed_by_the_Spets
Markenzwieback wrote:Spike NLOS was developed throughout the 1980s and both Hafiz and Pereh can therefore easily be rated within timeframe as a early 1990s prototype vehicle.


According to shitty tabloid papers and facebook pages.

It's the "Sekrit dokuments" of the Wargame world.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 16:26
by Markenzwieback
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:According to shitty tabloid papers and facebook pages.

It's the "Sekrit dokuments" of the Wargame world.

Well, I wouldn't call the Haaretz any of those two. But yeah, availability of entirely credible information isn't too high on the Spike NLOS.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Thu 14 Sep 2017 22:44
by Sleksa
Oktoberfest wrote:
Sleksa wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:The 30mm rule = 1AP is the general rule of the rounds introduced in Red Dragon, except for penetration above 24. In the Beta, the M1A2 had 25AP IIRC.


where do you keep finding these rules


I don't remember precisely but that's what was defined over 3 years ago. It's a general thumb of rule for ammo and armor efficiency and only the extreme values (extreme low armor or extreme high AP) are adapted. Hence the 6/7 AV on the AMX-30 even though it should be way lower, or the 24AP for the M1A2 even though it should get 25. But that's RD Beta timeframe we are talking about here.

I think it was BTR that made a file where every ammo was listed on an excel file, with the penetration values in game and how they should be valued in game. I even had this file saved somewhere but cannot find it anymore, unfortunately. Maybe someone can help?


There's been 500 different "rules" mentioned over the years ranging from how tank ranges should be defined to the ww3 starting in 1989, 1991, 1992, 1994 and so on to justify culling various protos, but these are all fantasies made up by people to try and justify their vision of what the game should be. The only actual exception to this has been medium optics which were offered to any tanks that have thermals on them. BTR's list, while a very nice effort from him, was also absolutely insane in terms of gameplay balance and it would've severely funked things up if it'd been implemented.

In general saying that one can find a definitive list of AP/armor values is also something that can be called high fantasy. There's really no way one person can find actual statistics of actual tank armor and ap values, and certainly not in a flat "this thing has x armor and this y pen" format. And even in the alternate reality where he does, it's subject to incredibly high variance depending on one's sourcing. F.ex there's books that estimate 1300mm pen for konkurs and others where it's listed as 500+.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Fri 15 Sep 2017 11:31
by Vobule
That is two of the extremes tho.
Wargame actually does a good job at keeping armor and AP to reasonable "authentic" values while putting gameplay first.
I mean, who would be crazy enough to give 24 AP to the swedish RR ?

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Fri 15 Sep 2017 11:41
by Markenzwieback
I mean, who would be crazy enough to give 24 AP to the swedish RR ?

16AP would have been neat though.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Fri 15 Sep 2017 15:36
by Sleksa
Vobule wrote:That is two of the extremes tho.
Wargame actually does a good job at keeping armor and AP to reasonable "authentic" values while putting gameplay first.
I mean, who would be crazy enough to give 24 AP to the swedish RR ?


An ideal solution is that the realism provides the correct ballpark of a region where certain stats should be, and this then gets either emphasized or de-emphasized depending on how the unit should fit into the overall gameplay. This is also more or less the course that has been taking place through the wargame series, and it has been steadily (although also very slow) progressing towards a better game. Too bad it had to stop right on the release of several new nations, leaving them without much needed tweaking to bring them back in line with others.

Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Posted: Fri 15 Sep 2017 23:25
by Mike
Markenzwieback wrote:
I mean, who would be crazy enough to give 24 AP to the swedish RR ?

16AP would have been neat though.


The pen was 800mm, right?