Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

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HrcAk47
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:11

Markenzwieback wrote:
another505 wrote:MAGLAN
pls, when i just play israel, i just use them everywhere. These things are basically playing EASY MODE against AI when playing multiplayer
Do what I remember faustmann mod did, switch role with shay 13

That was my favored solution for Maglans as well. But when you move them to the infantry tab, they should get back their 10-man strength and regular ATGM noise upon weapon fire. Maybe at the cost of less availability.


Spike would not be OP if its speed got nerfed a bit. It only goes 120 m/s IRL. That's like a Malyutka. Really damn slow.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby integ3r » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:12

Razzmann wrote:The hunting down capability becomes a lot weaker if you take away 1 RPM. I don't see T-72B1s hunting down tanks in forests while being only 5 km/h slower.

While T72B1 is quite the inferior in terms of acc and stabiliizer and AP, the ability to hunt tanks for their last bit of HP in the open is not even comparable.
Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:You can't really downplay acc and stabs as "soft-stats" when they're at 65% and 60%. You're statistically likely to hit 1st, likely to hit targets on small windows of opportunity etc. and you have the synergy of being the fastest tank with top tier stabs. That's nowhere near the capabilities of a wilk.

They do become soft stats when the strongest point of the M-84A is to duel with much heavier tanks in closer quarters, where accuracy is less important due to range scaling. Just like the T-80 - it is a really good tank despite its accuracy.

Disagree. By making this trade M84A has become the absolute best tank in the open for its class while being alright in forests as a bonus.

Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:What really makes it so good is that it's literally the best medium/heavy. What other tank in the game is a threat to the M-84A in its price class?

What exactly do you mean with "price class" ? Up to 10pts more / less? 20? As for the Wilk, on close quarters it is pretty much 50/50, with a slight advantage for the M-84A because it has the higher base accuracy, but the Wilk would be able to survive LGBs and bombers a whole lot better.

For sake of argument lets say +10, -10.
It is in no way 50/50 precisely because of the accuracy discrepancy. The speed difference makes certain that if, despite the odds M84A is losing, it can easily run away as opposed to the wilk which cannot run away unless you happen to also have bought a mortar and have a smoke cloud nearby or you happen to have a forest handy. If you wanna talk about how soft stats don't matter then take top armor. The wilk is alright, but other tanks can put up a fair fight against it so there is no need to risk a plane for a 85 point tank.

Razzmann wrote:I'd expect any 100+ tank to win the engangement in most scenarios. But of course in any close range scenario it will win vs a tank with <9rpm or without an autoloader nad <=9rpm. But that can hardly be an argument to increase the price to 100+pts and/or nerf the RPM. Otherwise we'd have to do the same to the T-80, Wilk, you name it.

The problem is there is no tank which can put up the same fight against it without getting a 115 point tank or beyond.

Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:There is none. M-84A completely shits on anything in or below its price class.

I mean, you'd expect it to win vs tanks that cost less? Also the tanks in its price class have other qualities where the M-84A is worse, it is not purely about tank v tank.

There aren't "other qualities". There is only 1 single quality, which is forest fights. The 84A trades being just "good" in forest fights for being "the best" at range. With no tanks that can even pose a threat due to 18 AP being so rare. And the units can get 18 AP will still lose because of accuracy or other differences. So essentially, by this tank existing, the meta is centralized around having to get much more expensive tanks just to counter 95 point tanks.

Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:#1 Poland got Wilk as an asymmetrical balance thing because poland was otherwise kinda shitty.

Is that an ALB argument? Because in RD there are coalitions to make national weaknesses up again, so this argument is pretty shitty.

Thats the point. It has carried over. Wilk is still one of the better tanks for 85 Points because muh flavour for the coalition. Better than the rest before yugo. Now Yugo appears, doesn't really need to be better than the rest including the Wilk, but it is. I'm saying there is no argument to be made in terms of making an argument for yugo having the best tank because it needs it.

Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:If we keep that in mind, can we make an argument for why Yugo needs an even more superior outlier than that? It should be brought in line with those tanks instead of just being flatly superior.

Isn't the point of more expensive tanks to be superior? Besides with 8rpm it would not be flatly superior, ignoring the weaker top armour.

Here is my problem. There is no way to fight on even terms no matter what coalition you play as against M84A at range. It is simply so good that it will win every fight against every tank about 10 points below or above.

The only way to fight on even terms is to reach for tanks costing 110-115 points or above. Tanks which take a serious availability hit in addition to just costing more.

It trades being "good" in forests for being the best in the open. T72B1 cannot win in the open. T72B1 cannot win in forests. In fact it's quite a few steps below the 84A in terms of stats. Yet it's supposed to cost roughly the same??

If soft stats don't matter, then bring them in line. 55% acc, 45% stabs, 8 Rof, 70 kph. (thats rounded UP). Then we're talking 95 pts.
Arguably doesn't deserve med optics. Then you could put it 90. That's still a good deal compared to the likes of B1. Trade some back and top armor, pay 5 points, get 19 AP and better acc. Still statistically winning, but the gap is closed a bit.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:48

integ3r wrote:While T72B1 is quite the inferior in terms of acc and stabiliizer and AP, the ability to hunt tanks for their last bit of HP in the open is not even comparable.

In the open the M-84A might not even be able to pen the tanks in the open.

integ3r wrote:You can't really downplay acc and stabs as "soft-stats" when they're at 65% and 60%. You're statistically likely to hit 1st, likely to hit targets on small windows of opportunity etc. and you have the synergy of being the fastest tank with top tier stabs. That's nowhere near the capabilities of a wilk.

In close quarters, the difference is negligible.

integ3r wrote:Disagree. By making this trade M84A has become the absolute best tank in the open for its class while being alright in forests as a bonus.

I would give that price to the Mag'ach tbh.

integ3r wrote:For sake of argument lets say +10, -10.
It is in no way 50/50 precisely because of the accuracy discrepancy. The speed difference makes certain that if, despite the odds M84A is losing, it can easily run away as opposed to the wilk which cannot run away unless you happen to also have bought a mortar and have a smoke cloud nearby or you happen to have a forest handy. If you wanna talk about how soft stats don't matter then take top armor. The wilk is alright, but other tanks can put up a fair fight against it so there is no need to risk a plane for a 85 point tank.


integ3r wrote:The problem is there is no tank which can put up the same fight against it without getting a 115 point tank or beyond.

Might be because there are like 5(?) tanks in that price range, 2 being the Leopard 2A1 which is just a horrible tank. And many others also coming with an ATGM that increases the price.

integ3r wrote:There aren't "other qualities". There is only 1 single quality, which is forest fights. The 84A trades being just "good" in forest fights for being "the best" at range. With no tanks that can even pose a threat due to 18 AP being so rare. And the units can get 18 AP will still lose because of accuracy or other differences. So essentially, by this tank existing, the meta is centralized around having to get much more expensive tanks just to counter 95 point tanks.

Having a reasonably price tank for 17AV can be very handy. When you want to have a tank that can actually tank.

integ3r wrote:Thats the point. It has carried over. Wilk is still one of the better tanks for 85 Points because muh flavour for the coalition. Better than the rest before yugo. Now Yugo appears, doesn't really need to be better than the rest including the Wilk, but it is. I'm saying there is no argument to be made in terms of making an argument for yugo having the best tank because it needs it.

What is wrong with having a better tank, just price it reasonably. It is not like it costs the same.

integ3r wrote:Here is my problem. There is no way to fight on even terms no matter what coalition you play as against M84A at range. It is simply so good that it will win every fight against every tank about 10 points below or above.

Not with 8rpm. Not if the tank has an ATGM like the T-80A or smth. Not if it barely damages the tank (like Challenger Mk.1). Yes it is much better than the Leo 2A1 for example, but it does not straight up win vs every other tank out there for 10pts more, that is a big exaggeration. And with 8rpm, I doubt it would win vs many - if any - tanks that cost more than 95pts.
I'd really like to see how it would still be worth 105pts with 8rpm and how it would still punch so hard above its price.


integ3r wrote:The only way to fight on even terms is to reach for tanks costing 110-115 points or above. Tanks which take a serious availability hit in addition to just costing more.

Well so can the T-80. And on open ranges I seriously doubt the effectiveness of the M-84A vs tanks like the OBR. 87. And with 8rpm, it would be much, much worse.

integ3r wrote:It trades being "good" in forests for being the best in the open. T72B1 cannot win in the open. T72B1 cannot win in forests. In fact it's quite a few steps below the 84A in terms of stats. Yet it's supposed to cost roughly the same??

"Roughly the same" = costing more than 10% more? And with 8rpm the price difference should still be twice as big? You could do the same argument with the HC abrams and the Leopard 2A5 then.

Like for real, I admit it should be 8rpm with 95 points first and see how it works out. But I just can't see how it should still get a price nerf after it.
Last edited by Razzmann on Sun 20 Aug 2017 17:04, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:48

Markenzwieback wrote:
another505 wrote:MAGLAN
pls, when i just play israel, i just use them everywhere. These things are basically playing EASY MODE against AI when playing multiplayer
Do what I remember faustmann mod did, switch role with shay 13

That was my favored solution for Maglans as well. But when you move them to the infantry tab, they should get back their 10-man strength and regular ATGM noise upon weapon fire. Maybe at the cost of less availability.

We also nerfed the Spike range by quite a bit.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:53

Razzmann wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:
another505 wrote:MAGLAN
pls, when i just play israel, i just use them everywhere. These things are basically playing EASY MODE against AI when playing multiplayer
Do what I remember faustmann mod did, switch role with shay 13

That was my favored solution for Maglans as well. But when you move them to the infantry tab, they should get back their 10-man strength and regular ATGM noise upon weapon fire. Maybe at the cost of less availability.

We also nerfed the Spike range by quite a bit.

In one of the first balance discussions post-DLC I was actually arguing for changing the Maglans Spike MR to SR and reducing range to 1575 or 1750 meters.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Sun 20 Aug 2017 15:55

Markenzwieback wrote:In one of the first balance discussions post-DLC I was actually arguing for changing the Maglans Spike MR to SR and reducing range to 1575 or 1750 meters.

But isnt the SR (even more?) ootf?

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 20 Aug 2017 16:00

Razzmann wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:In one of the first balance discussions post-DLC I was actually arguing for changing the Maglans Spike MR to SR and reducing range to 1575 or 1750 meters.

But isnt the SR (even more?) ootf?

Yes it technically is. But at this point it doesn't matter, as its a downsized variant of the MR/LR for platoon infantry use. It would feature the same stats and shorter range. Would be a good compromise balance wise and would allow Maglans to stay in the recon tab.

You could even consider giving them back 10-man strength when their ATGM is severely outranged by any tank. ;)

But for all that I care, they could keep their Spike MR and have it toned down to 1750 meters with the above treatment (MR or SR really is only a name game). That could easily be done, as the Finnish and Israeli MRs are already two separate weapons due to different firing noise.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 20 Aug 2017 17:27

Oh, I remembered another disparity.

Yugoslav infantry gets 1000 rounds of MG ammo where WGer infantry of the same veterancy/size gets 1200.

For example:
Regular: Mehanizovana Peš. gets 1000 rounds, Jager get 1200 rounds.
Elite: (base) Padobranci get 2000 rounds, (base) Fallschirmjager get 2400 rounds.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby integ3r » Sun 20 Aug 2017 18:11

Razzmann wrote:Might be because there are like 5(?) tanks in that price range, 2 being the Leopard 2A1 which is just a horrible tank. And many others also coming with an ATGM that increases the price.

How does this justify making the 84A the best of the bunch? To the point of requiring 110 point tanks to fight it?
Razzmann wrote:Having a reasonably price tank for 17AV can be very handy. When you want to have a tank that can actually tank.

Can't tank the 84A with its 19 AP.

Razzmann wrote:What is wrong with having a better tank, just price it reasonably. It is not like it costs the same.

If you're gonna have a unit that's better than everything else for its cost then you need a reason.

Razzmann wrote:Not with 8rpm. Not if the tank has an ATGM like the T-80A or smth. Not if it barely damages the tank (like Challenger Mk.1).

Chally 1 trades everything for Armor. ROF, AP, Speed, Stabs. This makes it very limited.

Razzmann wrote:Yes it is much better than the Leo 2A1 for example, but it does not straight up win vs every other tank out there for 10pts more, that is a big exaggeration. And with 8rpm, I doubt it would win vs many - if any - tanks that cost more than 95pts.
I'd really like to see how it would still be worth 105pts with 8rpm and how it would still punch so hard above its price.

Well you wanted to price buff it. To 90? Ok, then for 5 points you'd be lightyears ahead of T72B1. Makes absolutely no sense. At 105, how does the stats compare to M1A1? Trade 2 armor, 1 ROF for speed, 1HE, autoloader, and be 10 points cheaper.

Razzmann wrote:Well so can the T-80. And on open ranges I seriously doubt the effectiveness of the M-84A vs tanks like the OBR. 87. And with 8rpm, it would be much, much worse.
OBR87 is the best in its class which some people have wanted nerfed. Is this REALLY the standard you should be comparing to? Besides I could just dump the same argument against you. "Shouldn't a 5 point more expensive tank be a bit better?" Problem is that 84A is not "just a bit" better. Even so, the acc on this is way worse. T80A? Rarely does ATGM make a difference. In a gun fight M84A still has the advantage. 84A has optics, speed and gun advantage.

Razzmann wrote:
integ3r wrote:It trades being "good" in forests for being the best in the open. T72B1 cannot win in the open. T72B1 cannot win in forests. In fact it's quite a few steps below the 84A in terms of stats. Yet it's supposed to cost roughly the same??

"Roughly the same" = costing more than 10% more? And with 8rpm the price difference should still be twice as big?

Paying 10 pts for god tier accuracy, stabs, speed and +1AP does not add up either. Again, if this doesn't matter, then those soft stats should just be brought down, or we could make the argument that every tank should just be buffed through the roof because "soft stats".
Razzmann wrote:Like for real, I admit it should be 8rpm with 95 points first and see how it works out. But I just can't see how it should still get a price nerf after it.

Once again, the utter dominance it has over tanks with similar price makes it OP.

Please explain to me what tank each coalition has which lets it be on even terms with the 84A in a ranged fight.
- 103D?
Cannot catch the 84A if it flees. Can be kited to negate ROF advantage in which case it loses. Only effective as defensive option.

- 2A1
Established as trash.

- M1A1?
Significantly more expensive, will win at 4 hits while taking 5 to lose.

- AMX40?
Too weak armor. 84 Can always flee.

- K1?
AP is too low. Will lose every time.

- Magach
An even fight, Magach might win due to Rof advantage. But has no autoloader and cannot pursue.

- Chally1mk1
Very niche because it pretty much cannot fight anything else costing around its price.

-Wilk
Will lose every time.

-ZTZ 85 IIA
Will lose every time.

-Chonmaho V
WIll lose every time.

- T72B1
WIll lose every time.
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Re: Broken Shit that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Razzmann » Sun 20 Aug 2017 18:37

integ3r wrote:How does this justify making the 84A the best of the bunch? To the point of requiring 110 point tanks to fight it?

Because fighting a tank witha slightly more expensive tanks is easier than doing it with a slightly cheaper one.

Can't tank the 84A with its 19 AP.

Can tank enough shots. Also there are other units besides the 84A.

Chally 1 trades everything for Armor. ROF, AP, Speed, Stabs. This makes it very limited.

I'd say it is kne of the best tanks in the game. It also plays completely different. Limitied it surely is not.

At 105, how does the stats compare to M1A1? Trade 2 armor, 1 ROF for speed, 1HE, autoloader, and be 10 points cheaper.

If that is balanced in your eyes, then I am honestly speechless.

OBR87 is the best in its class which some people have wanted nerfed. Is this REALLY the standard you should be comparing to? Besides I could just dump the same argument against you. "Shouldn't a 5 point more expensive tank be a bit better?" Problem is that 84A is not "just a bit" better. Even so, the acc on this is way worse. T80A? Rarely does ATGM make a difference. In a gun fight M84A still has the advantage. 84A has optics, speed and gun advantage.

Then please oh please, show me replays with consecutive test where the M-84A beats the shit out of the more expensive tanks in the 100-110pts area. Because so far, all your claims have not been backed up by anything and I am done with that. Proof or gtfo.

K1 is cheaper and 8 vs 9rpm. Tanks do not have to win 50/50 agajnst each other to kost the same.
103D is just no traditional MBT to me.
AMX-40 costs a whole 15pts less?? Is a 1A5NO2 supposed to lose to a STRV 105 too?
Mag'ach is just as OP and 10rpm vs 8? Gonna take a few shots until the manual loader brings you down.
M1A1 4 shots at 6.6s reload time vs 5 shots at 7.5s, assuming full range. One range increment closer and the M1A1 needs only 3 shots.
Besides, since before Israel, the gap between K1 tier and M1A1 tier has been awkwardly big.

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